Lmao. Providing no proof for the most important one. Convenient. And no u are not describing scenario 5 because there's actually no way u can provide proof for it. Most likely reason: you are a stupid toxic fuck and u suck dick so u can't win. Lmao delusional. How do u write so u much bullshit just to not make a single valid point.
I can understand your brave attempt at linking behaviour score with what the Developers said with your logic and trying to state it like fact. But u simply don't know what you're saying. Sorry. U also don't know for sure if u get more toxic teammates than opponents. More likely u are delusional fuck with selective memory. Sorry
U did not make a single valid point. Why do I even bother. Don't write another fucking essay if u r not gonna make a valid point
and again. I never said that hidden pool could not be real. I'm saying even if it were (it'd be scenario 4) and that means you still suck dick lmao. Do u not see it? I abandoned 2 games. My behav score dropped to 5000. I noticed minor amounts of toxicity. But no real proof because I can't check behaviour score of ppl I'm matched with. Am I in hidden pool? Maybe. But is matchmaking fair? Yes. I'm still winning because the retards get in the other team after my losing streak.
That's a more reasonable way of looking at the data. Not your whiny ragey one sided delusional biased illogical crying
I believe behavioural score does have an impact on the matchmaking..
I was on winning streak 9 and then i abandon a game because of work and then when i come back, i continue to win two more match.. Thereafter i lose 300mmr in two days.. Matching with teammates who are either very unforgiving, curse and swear whole game, pick funny draft, pick jungle in 5k gaming etc.. Now im going into lp because i prove to them im more cancer than them.. hahaha... yes.. i do not have prove.. But my experience in this is that, every time after i abandon game, my games are getting harder to win..
In fact I'm not gonna write any essay anymore, you and the rest of the dumbshits on this forum who I'm sure barely read what someone posts and just like to randomly offend people by spamming those mainstream "dunning krueger", "git gud" and bullshit like that are hopeless. It's clear that you monkeys don't even make an effort in trying to really understand what a person is talking about and this is proved by the fact that as soon as I wrote the first comment I received retarded offenses and personal attacks. This happened on the thread I opened too. And I posted comments with the purpose of bringing my personal experience, compare it to other people's experiences and search for proofs about the matter, not the purpose of convincing some edgy kid on the internet who are too lazy to use their fucking brain and look at things with critical thought that I'm worthy and I don't suck at the game. Who the fuck even are you and why should I give a fuck about your personal offenses. There's nothing illogical about my opinion 'cause I talked about matchmaking patterns, I didn't talk about that one game I had in 2015 where that one Razor walked down mid and fed and we lost so uh matchmaking must be rigged. These are experiences I've collected over months, if not years. And I found a lot of people who found themselves in the same situation and confirmed my idea. Then I found the replies of the Valve developer and from there on it was case closed. Now if you retards suffer from a superiority complex and wanna deny even what a Valve developer says that's none of my fucking business. By all means, keep living in your imaginary world where people with different ideas, who haven't even claimed to be pros or something, are autists with a dunning krueger's syndrome and keep writing on this forum with the only intent of offending people and not having an actual constructive conversation, who fucking cares?
"Why the fuck would valve for example match u with 1000 behav scores in your team and 9000 behav scores in other team?"
I asked myself the same question as at first it didn't make any sense to me too and I couldn't find an explaination to why only my team was toxic 8 out of 10 games. But then I thought that Valve tries to match people with other players similar to them in skills and behavior, but the team a person is in is what matters to Valve, not the enemy team. And it makes somewhat sense: a toxic person and a kind person search for a game, they're on the same skill level but the system wants to keep the game fair not only in terms of skil llevel but also in terms of quality of the game. So what it does is it matches the toxic player with other toxic players and the kind player with other kind players. This results in games ending in 15 minutes 'cause someone in the toxic team went afk or abandoned or fed intentionally, or going 3-27, games that are perceived as unwinnable by the player who is in the hidden pool. And this made total sense to me, as it has a logical explaination and matches my personal experience. Now some comments ago a guy posted another reply by the Valve developer who stated "we are trying to improve the matchmaking system by matching people with players who have similar play styles. Dodgers with dodgers, feeders with feeders". So, again, he proved my point. And this is scenario 5. You can still be skeptical about it, it's your opinion, but are you sad fucktards done offending people on a personal level?
I believe behavioural score does have an impact on the matchmaking..
I was on winning streak 9 and then i abandon a game because of work and then when i come back, i continue to win two more match.. Thereafter i lose 300mmr in two days.. Matching with teammates who are either very unforgiving, curse and swear whole game, pick funny draft, pick jungle in 5k gaming etc.. Now im going into lp because i prove to them im more cancer than them.. hahaha... yes.. i do not have prove.. But my experience in this is that, every time after i abandon game, my games are getting harder to win..
You are retarded if u think valve would match toxic players against angels as their core matchmaking algorithm. Angel players do not deserve to play against retards who feed and abandon. They want good games too. This is proof you have no idea what you are talking about. Again no evidence provided just random experiences that have no grounds in reality. Meaning u are shit and delusional. Didn't read your whole Long ass essay rambling on about nothing again.
Every idiot who comes on here with the experience that they got shadow pooled is ignoring one very important part of the equation, which is who gets put in the other team. Convenient oversight of the delusional mind.
Why am I the only one said, look I abandoned, I noticed gAme quality dropped, but look the other team is full of retards as well? Humans inherently look outward for excuses to cover up their own incompetence.
@Jacked, please explain the losing streaks that follow a shadow ban then. Also, explain why I have a 20% win rate on my 4.1k smurf, which I sometimes abandon and intentionally feed with compared to my main that maintained 4.6k mmr for hundreds of games.
Simple explanation. You suck dick so u can't win when u get on win streak. U meet better players and u suck dick. Mmr variability means u won't get good team all the time so u have to let your individual skill shine. You think your mmr just gonna keep going up indefinitely and u just meet perfect players to carry you to 9k without actually being that good ? How's that so hard to see in your own games?
You also answered your own question which is what most ppl here struggle with. U just said u abandon and intentionally feed. Your losses are sometimes the mindset u have going into games that cause u to lose yourself. Then u just blame the toxicity. But u are part of the problem. If u play properly I have no reason to believe ur smurf shouldn't replicate your main. But u treat your smurf differently from the outset then u basically apply confirmation bias to yourself and say "look my games on my smurf are so toxic"
Sure u get toxic teammates once in a while and u lose winnable games. But that's also because u r not good enough yet to compensate for the difference. All I'm Asking is that u judge games u won fairly and ask if there was a retard in the other team
You also answered your own question which is what most people here struggle with. U just said u abandon and intentionally feed. Your losses are sometimes the mindset u have going into games that cause u to lose yourself. Then u just blame the toxicity. But u are part of the problem. If u play properly I have no reason to believe ur smurf should not replicate your main. But u treat your smurf differently from the outset then u basically apply confirmation bias to yourself and say "look my games on my smurf are so toxic"
Wrong. I made that smurf to alternate between my main and my smurf when I got low priority. When Valve increased report amount and impact in February, I was getting low priority on my main frequently. The smurf was originally 4.4k, so it was a good way to keep playing rank while I remove lp on my main with a bot. Therefore, I was playing seriously on my smurf. Out of the 60 ranked games I played, I only fed or abandoned 5 of them and that was because there were a few arrogant players on my team. I absolutely cannot stand arrogant people. That was the only reason. Nothing else.
This kid just can't accept the fact that things are not the way he sees them. Who the fuck ignored the enemy teams in the equation, you worthless monkey. I mentioned them in the comment above. I just had a game with a SK who lost mid hard, enraged and went afk farming midas, the Pudge saw that and started trolling using force staff on me when I got ruptured by BS, fed intentioanlly, bought and destroyed wards and went completely afk in the last 20 minutes of the game. The other team was well coordinated, made a few mistakes, game was 12-10 in the beginning, but no complaints, no shit in the all chat, they kept playing. 8 games out of 10 are like this. Accept the fucking reality told by someone who has to deal with this shit every fucking day, confirmed by other people and BY A VALVE DEVELOPER and move on. You hold no truth, you know nothing, you are nothing. You're just a fucking frustrated dumbshit looking for excuses to mess with people. Learn to deal with the world and learn to fucking behave, edgy kid.
Roflmaaao not that we are on Dotabuff, a site made with the purpose of keeping track of stats and games. Why check it and see who's fucking right when you can talk shit out of nowhere. 1-14 SK who I was even in party with, 15 minutes midas and the 4 last hits, 6-14, 197 GPM/244 EXP Pudge who bought 10 wards and 8 sentries and destroyed half of them. Roflmaaao I must be so delusional, not that I just finished playing that fucking game 20 minutes ago. Let me lie about a game ON DOTABUFF.
Ever wonder the reason ur teammate tilt becAuse of you? U are just a horrible human being maybe?
Pretty sure the enemy team is just as likely to rage and break their items and spam sentry. Maybe they don't have an idiot like u on their team to set them off.
It is related to the topic, you talked about keeping into consideration the enemy teams and not just my teams and I did. I just talked about the most recent trash game adding up to the tons of trash games I've experienced. I've never been mad on this forum, edgy kid. If you think that cursing here and there is raging you're fucking retarded. Cursing just underlines how much you disgust me. Now you can stop trying to act like you're the good guy whose interested in solving the issue about hidden pool and really cares about respecting the topic of the thread, when you're the frustrated kid going around offending people for no reason. Is there even a limit to how ridiculous you can get, edgy kid?
@roshan. FAir enough. Only u know for sure if u treat both accounts the same. But if u play different heroes on one account. Or just random variability in general can account for the 300 mmr difference. Still, that's nothing to do with why this delusional idiot claims he can't win.
If u played 500 games on ur smurf and 500 games on ur main with the same heroes and role picked, and u get a consistent difference in your constant mmr (eg one is 4k flat the other 4.5k) and the only difference between the 2 accounts is behaviour score, I will concede.
Pls feel free to provide evidence other than whiny raging clouded emotional memory of a 12 year old
Who's an idiot, edgy kid, I did nothing. I picked pos 5 and was happy about supporting my team, did my job, helped my lanes as much as I could, just to get flamed by a trashcan who then went afk 'cause he was mad at another player. I do tilt people sometimes, who the fuck even denied that. I specified I can be toxic, it's not something I try to hide and that you have to uncover. Just take a look at the names I've had on Dota. But tilting from time to time never cost me tons of reports, losing billions of games and ending up in the hidden pool. I can make the game bitter sometimes, but this...
Why are you tagging yourself by the way? Stop projecting maybe, frustrated fucktard?
I didn't exclude them 'cause "uuh let me manipulate the topic with my lies", I did because they're the minority of the games at current time. 2 out of 10 games are won because either I get surprisingly nice teammates or the enemy team gets beyond toxic fucks, it's obvious. But it's still 20% of the games, where in the ordinary pool it's the opposite. Everyone in the ordinary pool gets some of their games ruined by toxic people, that's for sure, but the percentages are reversed. Therefore this is a completely different pool, simple as that.
I remember the guy who i used as an example for my crystal maiden guide, he was 3.4 and i managed to get him to 4.4
The biggest thing i had to fix on him was the attitude, he was playing pos 5, but dear god did he flame everyone.
he called himself ''positive mental attitude'', but he ruins his carry's lane by shitty pulls and then goes to other lanes after feeding the offlaner 2 kills.
then he proceeds to flame his carry for not having any farm.
and the fact is: he was totally oblivious to his mentality.
LOL I'm in a game where 2 kids started fighting over mid. One picked Magnus, the other one randomed Warlock. The Omni said he would walk down mid. I picked Rubick and got all the wards and stuff hoping these kids will eventually calm down but Warlock came bot with no items and is ruining AM's lane by stealing farm and stuff and AM just walked into the enemy tower twice. Please tell me again these kind of games happen every once in a while and there's no separate pool.
_
We just moved top and I'm trying to supp AM as much as I can while Omni went jungling (?) and Warlock followed us spamming fatal bonds in lane and began to steal AM's farm and fuck up the creep equilibrium. Tell me I can't win games anymore 'cause all of a sudden I went from pretty decent to utterly trash in the same skill level and that matchmaking is in no way related to this.
_
Turns out the Gyro in their team is toxic too for his own admission, says he will report both Warlock and AM. Now I don't know how it's even possible but the scores are even (AM has mask of madness lol). AM saw we have a chance and decided to try his best to win if we report Warlock. Gyro just bought back after dying stupidly and the Spirit Break in their team just wrote that he's a retard in the all chat.
I'm writing this 'cause I wanna be as much accurate as possible about the games I find. This looks like a "toxic people everywhere" kind of game that we might actually end up winning. But still, toxic people everywhere.
_
Their Gyro finally decided to sell all his items and has, I swear to god, 115 tp scrolls lol. And he just walked down mid. The Spirit Breaker who 10 minutes ago flamed the Gyro in the all chat now died in an attemp to kill me by charging while ruptured and just rage-bought back. We're actually winning. If games like this look normal to you then I don't know what normality is anymore.
then stop getting reported dumbass. i already told you, beh score doesnt do anything. there is a hidden pool but its caused by recent reports enough with this thanks.
No I think I proved enough that I don't have anything to deny, that I've always been honest and that it's not about looking for excuses to why I lose so much now 'cause I don't need them.
So all the people who experienced this trash and have a low bhs are lying, the Valve developer was on drugs and didn't know what he was talking about. Alright, now I'm done for good.
Before around 3.5k mmr, games are easy whether you get shadow pooled or not. I have a 3.1k smurf that is just as bad as my 4k smurf in terms of feeding and abandoning but it still has a 90% win rate. There reaches a point though that 1v5 games are just too hard to win.
@Hidden Pool Destroyed My ... No definite proof has been provided for the impact of behaviour score on matchmaking yet. The only certain thing is shadow pool exists.
@Cookie Do you admit you were wrong about hidden pool? If not, abandon 2 games on your main, and tell me how long your mmr lasts.
@<3 Roshan fair enough. I personally give it for granted that bhs defines which pool a player is put into for logical reasons but I understand.
Aaaand I just got matched with the Gyro from last game. Getting matched with the same toxic people over and over is another thing that made me question the pool I'm in. Now tell me it's a casualty. There are 510.000 players playing Dota right now but I often get matched with the same people at least twice in a row. I'll keep doing my research and see if I come up with some new proof, hoping Volvo will eventually clarify the situation one day.
that's not what i was talking about, hidden pool's existence wouldn't matter to me, because you have to consider that a player who is naturally toxic would be constantly in the hidden pool and he'd get used to playing with other toxic players.
so someones 4k mmr for being a nice guy is the same as someone's 4k mmr for being an asshole.
@Cookie You clearly said hidden pool is non-existent and is an excuse for bad gameplay in your first comment:
there's no such thing as behavior score/hidden pool giving you bad teammates, nor was it ever demonstrated nor proven.
it's just that idiots like these up here need any excuse, because dunning kruger hits hard.
The only thing it does is simply tell you how close you are to getting low prio due to reports/abandons.
There wouldn't be low priority if there was a hidden pool, nor has any evidence that BS is anything other than the score of how close you are to getting LP
you have to consider that a player who is naturally toxic would be constantly in the hidden pool and he'd get used to playing with other toxic players.
You forget that most people get reported for performing poorly not for intentional feeding. The proof is empirical. How often do you get an intentional feeder as opposed to a bad player? I get an intentional feeder once per 100+ games. Getting toxic players in hidden pool is likely, but getting 4 bad players is more likely. Also, there really is no adjustment to function better with toxic players. They just do whatever they want and rage once things go wrong. Things only worsen the longer someone suffers in shadow pool. A study stated (https://psmag.com/social-justice/torture-permanently-alters-bodys-response-pain-69579), ‘It also found that non-physical torture—POWs said they were subjected to extreme isolation, deprivation, and mock executions—may have some role in the long-term alteration of physical pain response . . . In line with previous research, the torture survivors "exhibited generalized alterations in pain perception and modulation," meaning they felt more pain than most people when responding to the same kind of stimulus. Their bodies were also less able to "modulate" that pain's effects. The human body usually responds to pain dynamically, essentially distributing it. The ex-POWs bodies exhibited a worse ability to regulate physical pain than those of the soldiers who had not been taken prisoner.’ I assume they only tested physical pain because mental pain is hard to measure.
every game, i get them every game, and how many times you've seen me complain about bad teammates?
i get idiots every game, my last warlock game i played on this account i had a drow ranger who missed every last hit.
i would be surprised if i don't find a match where i have someone doing something utterly stupid.
but i'm real, not a kid trying to look for excuses, i play to win for myself. Also, since you like quoting my posts, try not to be selective about it:
So many people get triggered over 25 MMR. They don't realize that teammates feeding doesn't affect your skill at all. A player who gains 25 MMR from feeding does not get better at the game; the system will eventually get that MMR back from them. A player who loses 25 MMR from feeding does not get worse at the game; the system will eventually give them that MMR back. But most people only care about MMR, and are subsequently unable to realize this.
the thing is, getting 4 bad players in a match is quite likely, but you have to remember if the pool exists the majority of the bad players will stay there a lot, meaning over time their skill will even out with that bracket.
aka those ''5 bad players at X mmr'' are as good as the ''5 good players at X mmr'' on the opposite team
i remember this same argument being held last year by some 4k's, not surprisingly these hidden pool arguments are almost always made by 4ks, and like i've shown: if you're good enough skill, you'll win regardless of what teammates you have.
because if a hidden pool were to exist, example the 2 month thing mentioned, people who are stuck there would've gotten used to it so much that their bad gameplay is their mmr.
So regardless if it exists or not, it won't matter.
just to make it clear for the blind: no, i'm not convinced to it
but i won't lie, i'm now opened to the idea due to the valve mention, BUT the fact is that was 3 years ago and there were countless matchmaking changes made between then.
So, till we get a testable method, like I've mentioned i'll still keep my stance at ''not true till proven''
The fact is, every single person in this thread who mentioned anything about hidden pool had a completely different and contradicting theory to the others to use the ''fill the gaps'' argument.
every game, i get them every game, and how many times you've seen me complain about bad teammates?
i get idiots every game, my last warlock game i played on this account i had a drow ranger who missed every last hit.
You did not answer the question. It was how often do you get intentional feeders as opposed to bad players. You seemed to have answered more along the lines of how often do you get bad teammates, which was not the question?
So many people get triggered over 25 MMR. They don't realize that teammates feeding doesn't affect your skill at all. A player who gains 25 MMR from feeding does not get better at the game; the system will eventually get that MMR back from them. A player who loses 25 MMR from feeding does not get worse at the game; the system will eventually give them that MMR back. But most people only care about MMR, and are subsequently unable to realize this.
How is this quote relevant? I am not complaining about intentional feeders. I am complaining about having bad teammates on my team due to shadow pool. You seemed to have largely misinterpreted my post.
you have to remember if the pool exists the majority of the bad players will stay there a lot, meaning over time their skill will even out with that bracket.
Perhaps, but there is a key flaw with your statement. ‘over time their skill will even out with that bracket.’ The reporting system was changed thrice in the past 5 months. In mid-February, reports given were increased and their impact was increased. Around 2 months later, Valve greatly reduced the amounts of reports given because of the plethoric complaints on Reddit and by streamers. Then, about 3 weeks later, they slightly increased reports given. Before, it was basically 2 reports per month. This means there has really only been 1 month for shadow pool to adjust to the changes. The second flaw with your theory is, not everyone remains in shadow pool forever. People enter and leave the shadow pool. This would make it harder or take longer to balance the shadow pool. Finally, you assumed that both teams are always in the shadow pool. There has been no ‘verifiable proof’ of this.
BUT the fact is that was 3 years ago and there were countless matchmaking changes made between then.
The general rule of thumb is, they only change something if enough people complain about it, like with reports. Shadow pool does not get that amount of attention or belief.
@blum The point was prolonged mental suffering is bad long-term. If you have nothing to contribute, leave.
the unluckiest i was was like 6 games in a row with intentional feeders like 2 months ago. After that i got all normal games, because as unlikely as it is, it's still just random chance.
I'm yet to be given an account where i'd get constant feeders.
also, i didn't assume that both teams are in the shadow pool, i said the good team(good considering non shadow pool) vs bad team
Again there's another issue with your argument, it's just a ''argument of the gaps'' where i can't make a counter argument due to the information being impossible to reach, all you did is make a new counter argument using my information.
But i'll play it your game:
Perhaps, but there is a key flaw with your statement. ‘over time their skill will even out with that bracket.’
and
The second flaw with your theory is, not everyone remains in shadow pool forever. People enter and leave the shadow pool.
and
his would make it harder or take longer to balance the shadow pool. Finally, you assumed that both teams are in the shadow pool.
The problem here is the mentioned ''2 month shadow pool'' by the developer, if a single team were to be getting bad players(shadowpooled) every game against let's say better co-ordinated players those players during that period would drop in mmr, TILL which i said where they get evened out with the skill of the bracket.
meaning if you drop 300-500 mmr, you'll play against worse enemies which you'll find easy to beat, but you wouldn't go up either because you can't win in the previous bracket without teamplay.
MEANING, That dropped MMR would be their new MMR, regardless of their teammates
because the enemy might be co-operative and nice to each other, but they just lack the skill to beat the shadowpooled players.
The general rule of thumb is, they only change something if enough people complain about it, like with reports. Shadow pool does not get that amount of attention or belief.
except there were dozens of reddit epidemics of people bitching about feeders, toxic, bad etc. teammates, meaning it would have been changed.
Just that the developer would never tell you.
Now let me find a flaw in your theory so you can use your magical ''fill the gaps'' argument for me:
If both teams aren't in the shadowpool, then there would be a Noticable discreptency on some players, meaning we could just find some X players who'd always get very very very frequent feeders on their team, and those feeders would also get feeders
and we could track that as verifiable proof
why? because those games would be super obvious, all games would be 20~ minute losses.
So toxic retards everywhere? Sounds like scenario 4. That's more like it. You're finally coming around. Why not post from your hidden pooled account ? I don't see the games you are taking about
like anyone else, like 2 in 100 games.
the unluckiest i was was like 6 games in a row with intentional feeders like 2 months ago. After that i got all normal games, because as unlikely as it is, it's still just random chance.
I'm yet to be given an account where i'd get constant feeders.
Exactly. The point is intentional feeders are extremely rare compared to bad players. Therefore, people who get reported are more likely to be bad players rather than intentional feeders. Also, I assume you are referring to your main account not your smurfs, right?
Again there's another issue with your argument, it's just a ''argument of the gaps'' where i can't make a counter argument due to the information being impossible to reach,
I assume you are referring to my claim about the report system? Valve mentioned all but the 3rd change to the report system in the patch notes.
all you did is make a new counter argument using my information.
I am using your information because I am disproving your claims. There is nothing wrong with using your information if it conveys my point.
you have to remember if the pool exists the majority of the bad players will stay there a lot, meaning over time their skill will even out with that bracket.
Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment. Your clarification is in my favour though. ‘over time their skill will even out with that bracket.’ The fact that ‘even[ing] out’ is necessary for players in shadow pools means that mmr for shadow pool and non-shadow-pool players represents different skill. If mmr between the 2 pools were closely aligned, little to no ‘even[ing] out’ would be needed. This creates a balancing problem. If Valve was matching a shadow-pooled team against a non-shadow-pooled team, they are using 2 different systems of mmr that represent different things.
According to you, bad shadow-pooled players drop mmr. The problem here is that high mmr players do not get players once their mmr has already been evened out. They get them while their mmr is still high, meaning a team of high-mmr shadow-pooled players will get grouped with people who belong below their mmr. Incidentally, 4.6k mmr is high in Australia. The leader board mmr for the top Australian player that plays only in Australia is 6.9k mmr. That is about 2.6k mmr below Europe’s top player.
meaning if you drop 300-500 mmr, you'll play against worse enemies which you'll find easy to beat, but you wouldn't go up either because you can't win in the previous bracket without teamplay.
MEANING, That dropped MMR would be their new MMR, regardless of their teammates
because the enemy might be co-operative and nice to each other, but they just lack the skill to beat the shadowpooled players.
I fully agree with you here. The problem is, I never dropped mmr. I maintained my 4.6k through the 100+ games of shadow pool I played. Therefore, games never got easier for me. The shadow pool only made it extremely hard and annoying for me to climb. My previous paragraph is also relevant here. Not that it is relevant but following your logic and example, I should be at least a 5k player on average in the non-shadow pool.
''2 month shadow pool''
The 2 month shadow pool was only specified for people who ran multiple instances of Dota. You literally said it yourself, ‘i'm pretty sure you're blind, what they mean there is running into bots due to running multiple steam instances at the same time.’ The developer I quoted initially said they match people with similar play style and gave examples of abandoning and throwing. This means each ‘play style’ could be controlled differently by Valve. There is no concrete proof for any other shadow pool but the botters’ one lasting 2 month.
except there were dozens of reddit epidemics of people bitching about feeders, toxic, bad etc. teammates, meaning it would have been changed.
Firstly, Valve has shadow pool to punish people. If their only intent was to punish, it is working if people are complaining. Secondly, go to your profile and click ‘show conduct’. It says 77% of players have 0–2 reports. Therefore, at maximum 23% of players are in the shadow pool. Therefore, if a shadow pool thread was posted on Reddit, around 23% players would support it and 77% would disprove of it. This could result in the thread being downvoted to oblivion or insufficient upvotes to have it in ‘hot’ threads.
If both teams aren't in the shadowpool, then there would be a Noticable discreptency on some players, meaning we could just find some X players who'd always get very very very frequent feeders on their team, and those feeders would also get feeders
This comment is hard to understand. Please elaborate. Be more specific with the ‘discrepancy’ you are referring to. ‘X players who'd always get very very very frequent feeders on their team’. How do you know such players exist? How is this related to the discrepancy? ‘those feeders would also get feeders’. It is unlikely for a player under the ‘feeding play style’ to meet another feeder because of the inaccurate use of the report system. This was shown during the report system change in February. Many innocent players were getting lp and mutes to the extent Valve had to greatly limit reports given out.There is no report button for poor gameplay, so they must report under ability abuse, communication abuse, and/or intentional feeding.
Anyway, I am going to sleep now.
@blum This is getting off topic. Cookie claimed that people adjust to toxic players over time. He has provided no proof for this. I have no obligation to disprove it. Secondly, the study stated ‘It also found that non-physical torture—POWs said they were subjected to extreme isolation, deprivation, and mock executions—may have some role in the long-term alteration of physical pain response’. Therefore, it is at least known that mental suffering causes long-term negatives. I am not suffering like tortured soldier, but the study does imply suffering causes negative long-term effects, which contradicts Cookie’s statement regarding positive adjustments to toxic players over time. I mean, I could also mention people with depression and anxiety disorders. Their disorder does not improve without therapy or medicine.
but no ur pus$y ass gonna sit in the chari all day complainging about fuckign dota 2 hidden pool which may not even exist great man!!
Valve developer comment > anything you say unless you know more Dota behind the scenes than the Valve developer does.
ppl who are likely to get reported are not bad players, but toxic players. toxic either in words, or in behaviour/playstyle. occasionally a bad player gets reported. but usually its the way the player chooses to play (let's say he's bad) but comes off as annoying and toxic even if he doesnt say anything gets that player reported.
usually its deserved. its not just about being 'bad'. but its usually about being selfish in a team game.
can all hidden pool theorists at least spell out if they believe devils get matched with devils, or if devils get matched with angels? to make your arguments clearer. these are 2 very different things about the hidden pool. and its important.
you guys are all over the place with your arguments.
consider this: 2 equally toxic teams. the losing team is usually saltier than the other. the winning team will seem cooperative. having less reason to rage. no surprise there right?
have any of u conspiracy theorists considered that losing's correlation with toxicity may not mean that toxicity causes your losing, but that you're inability to play properly is causing the toxicity?
and it's why its hard to provide evidence using your own experiences. it is very likely biased. the only way is to observe behaviour scores of both teams in a large sample of your games. so you control for the fact that you might actually suck major dick and be triggering everyone u meet causing them to destroy their items.
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Lmao. Providing no proof for the most important one. Convenient. And no u are not describing scenario 5 because there's actually no way u can provide proof for it. Most likely reason: you are a stupid toxic fuck and u suck dick so u can't win. Lmao delusional. How do u write so u much bullshit just to not make a single valid point.
I can understand your brave attempt at linking behaviour score with what the Developers said with your logic and trying to state it like fact. But u simply don't know what you're saying. Sorry. U also don't know for sure if u get more toxic teammates than opponents. More likely u are delusional fuck with selective memory. Sorry
U did not make a single valid point. Why do I even bother. Don't write another fucking essay if u r not gonna make a valid point
and again. I never said that hidden pool could not be real. I'm saying even if it were (it'd be scenario 4) and that means you still suck dick lmao. Do u not see it? I abandoned 2 games. My behav score dropped to 5000. I noticed minor amounts of toxicity. But no real proof because I can't check behaviour score of ppl I'm matched with. Am I in hidden pool? Maybe. But is matchmaking fair? Yes. I'm still winning because the retards get in the other team after my losing streak.
That's a more reasonable way of looking at the data. Not your whiny ragey one sided delusional biased illogical crying
Why the fuck would valve for example match u with 1000 behav scores in your team and 9000 behav scores in other team?
That doesn't make sense.
I believe behavioural score does have an impact on the matchmaking..
I was on winning streak 9 and then i abandon a game because of work and then when i come back, i continue to win two more match.. Thereafter i lose 300mmr in two days.. Matching with teammates who are either very unforgiving, curse and swear whole game, pick funny draft, pick jungle in 5k gaming etc.. Now im going into lp because i prove to them im more cancer than them.. hahaha... yes.. i do not have prove.. But my experience in this is that, every time after i abandon game, my games are getting harder to win..
Yo why is this thread still here can we ignore it plz
In fact I'm not gonna write any essay anymore, you and the rest of the dumbshits on this forum who I'm sure barely read what someone posts and just like to randomly offend people by spamming those mainstream "dunning krueger", "git gud" and bullshit like that are hopeless. It's clear that you monkeys don't even make an effort in trying to really understand what a person is talking about and this is proved by the fact that as soon as I wrote the first comment I received retarded offenses and personal attacks. This happened on the thread I opened too. And I posted comments with the purpose of bringing my personal experience, compare it to other people's experiences and search for proofs about the matter, not the purpose of convincing some edgy kid on the internet who are too lazy to use their fucking brain and look at things with critical thought that I'm worthy and I don't suck at the game. Who the fuck even are you and why should I give a fuck about your personal offenses. There's nothing illogical about my opinion 'cause I talked about matchmaking patterns, I didn't talk about that one game I had in 2015 where that one Razor walked down mid and fed and we lost so uh matchmaking must be rigged. These are experiences I've collected over months, if not years. And I found a lot of people who found themselves in the same situation and confirmed my idea. Then I found the replies of the Valve developer and from there on it was case closed. Now if you retards suffer from a superiority complex and wanna deny even what a Valve developer says that's none of my fucking business. By all means, keep living in your imaginary world where people with different ideas, who haven't even claimed to be pros or something, are autists with a dunning krueger's syndrome and keep writing on this forum with the only intent of offending people and not having an actual constructive conversation, who fucking cares?
"Why the fuck would valve for example match u with 1000 behav scores in your team and 9000 behav scores in other team?"
I asked myself the same question as at first it didn't make any sense to me too and I couldn't find an explaination to why only my team was toxic 8 out of 10 games. But then I thought that Valve tries to match people with other players similar to them in skills and behavior, but the team a person is in is what matters to Valve, not the enemy team. And it makes somewhat sense: a toxic person and a kind person search for a game, they're on the same skill level but the system wants to keep the game fair not only in terms of skil llevel but also in terms of quality of the game. So what it does is it matches the toxic player with other toxic players and the kind player with other kind players. This results in games ending in 15 minutes 'cause someone in the toxic team went afk or abandoned or fed intentionally, or going 3-27, games that are perceived as unwinnable by the player who is in the hidden pool. And this made total sense to me, as it has a logical explaination and matches my personal experience. Now some comments ago a guy posted another reply by the Valve developer who stated "we are trying to improve the matchmaking system by matching people with players who have similar play styles. Dodgers with dodgers, feeders with feeders". So, again, he proved my point. And this is scenario 5. You can still be skeptical about it, it's your opinion, but are you sad fucktards done offending people on a personal level?
@(TIBDP) sad king yes sir sorry sir.
Welcome to the shadow pool.
You are retarded if u think valve would match toxic players against angels as their core matchmaking algorithm. Angel players do not deserve to play against retards who feed and abandon. They want good games too. This is proof you have no idea what you are talking about. Again no evidence provided just random experiences that have no grounds in reality. Meaning u are shit and delusional. Didn't read your whole Long ass essay rambling on about nothing again.
Every idiot who comes on here with the experience that they got shadow pooled is ignoring one very important part of the equation, which is who gets put in the other team. Convenient oversight of the delusional mind.
Why am I the only one said, look I abandoned, I noticed gAme quality dropped, but look the other team is full of retards as well? Humans inherently look outward for excuses to cover up their own incompetence.
This jacked has nothing good to say... but to scold people retard.... Wish you all the best in your real life activity with such attitude..
U are retard Dentist.
Lose streak because of throwers on your team I presume?
Win because u are pro and not because of throwers on other team?
@Jacked, please explain the losing streaks that follow a shadow ban then. Also, explain why I have a 20% win rate on my 4.1k smurf, which I sometimes abandon and intentionally feed with compared to my main that maintained 4.6k mmr for hundreds of games.
Simple explanation. You suck dick so u can't win when u get on win streak. U meet better players and u suck dick. Mmr variability means u won't get good team all the time so u have to let your individual skill shine. You think your mmr just gonna keep going up indefinitely and u just meet perfect players to carry you to 9k without actually being that good ? How's that so hard to see in your own games?
You also answered your own question which is what most ppl here struggle with. U just said u abandon and intentionally feed. Your losses are sometimes the mindset u have going into games that cause u to lose yourself. Then u just blame the toxicity. But u are part of the problem. If u play properly I have no reason to believe ur smurf shouldn't replicate your main. But u treat your smurf differently from the outset then u basically apply confirmation bias to yourself and say "look my games on my smurf are so toxic"
Sure u get toxic teammates once in a while and u lose winnable games. But that's also because u r not good enough yet to compensate for the difference. All I'm Asking is that u judge games u won fairly and ask if there was a retard in the other team
Wrong. I made that smurf to alternate between my main and my smurf when I got low priority. When Valve increased report amount and impact in February, I was getting low priority on my main frequently. The smurf was originally 4.4k, so it was a good way to keep playing rank while I remove lp on my main with a bot. Therefore, I was playing seriously on my smurf. Out of the 60 ranked games I played, I only fed or abandoned 5 of them and that was because there were a few arrogant players on my team. I absolutely cannot stand arrogant people. That was the only reason. Nothing else.
This kid just can't accept the fact that things are not the way he sees them. Who the fuck ignored the enemy teams in the equation, you worthless monkey. I mentioned them in the comment above. I just had a game with a SK who lost mid hard, enraged and went afk farming midas, the Pudge saw that and started trolling using force staff on me when I got ruptured by BS, fed intentioanlly, bought and destroyed wards and went completely afk in the last 20 minutes of the game. The other team was well coordinated, made a few mistakes, game was 12-10 in the beginning, but no complaints, no shit in the all chat, they kept playing. 8 games out of 10 are like this. Accept the fucking reality told by someone who has to deal with this shit every fucking day, confirmed by other people and BY A VALVE DEVELOPER and move on. You hold no truth, you know nothing, you are nothing. You're just a fucking frustrated dumbshit looking for excuses to mess with people. Learn to deal with the world and learn to fucking behave, edgy kid.
The enemy team is well coordinate all the time and my team is toxic. Roflmao good shit bruh. Nice delusional glasses you got on
Reminder that this thread is about behaviour score. Pls stop posting garbage that's not relevant
Btw why are u so mad and ragey all the time. Emotion is the downfall of logic
Roflmaaao not that we are on Dotabuff, a site made with the purpose of keeping track of stats and games. Why check it and see who's fucking right when you can talk shit out of nowhere. 1-14 SK who I was even in party with, 15 minutes midas and the 4 last hits, 6-14, 197 GPM/244 EXP Pudge who bought 10 wards and 8 sentries and destroyed half of them. Roflmaaao I must be so delusional, not that I just finished playing that fucking game 20 minutes ago. Let me lie about a game ON DOTABUFF.
Ever wonder the reason ur teammate tilt becAuse of you? U are just a horrible human being maybe?
Pretty sure the enemy team is just as likely to rage and break their items and spam sentry. Maybe they don't have an idiot like u on their team to set them off.
It is related to the topic, you talked about keeping into consideration the enemy teams and not just my teams and I did. I just talked about the most recent trash game adding up to the tons of trash games I've experienced. I've never been mad on this forum, edgy kid. If you think that cursing here and there is raging you're fucking retarded. Cursing just underlines how much you disgust me. Now you can stop trying to act like you're the good guy whose interested in solving the issue about hidden pool and really cares about respecting the topic of the thread, when you're the frustrated kid going around offending people for no reason. Is there even a limit to how ridiculous you can get, edgy kid?
@roshan. FAir enough. Only u know for sure if u treat both accounts the same. But if u play different heroes on one account. Or just random variability in general can account for the 300 mmr difference. Still, that's nothing to do with why this delusional idiot claims he can't win.
If u played 500 games on ur smurf and 500 games on ur main with the same heroes and role picked, and u get a consistent difference in your constant mmr (eg one is 4k flat the other 4.5k) and the only difference between the 2 accounts is behaviour score, I will concede.
Pls feel free to provide evidence other than whiny raging clouded emotional memory of a 12 year old
@retarded delusional fuck.
U are excluding a whole class of games. Games u won where u assess your teammates and opponents in those games.
Who's an idiot, edgy kid, I did nothing. I picked pos 5 and was happy about supporting my team, did my job, helped my lanes as much as I could, just to get flamed by a trashcan who then went afk 'cause he was mad at another player. I do tilt people sometimes, who the fuck even denied that. I specified I can be toxic, it's not something I try to hide and that you have to uncover. Just take a look at the names I've had on Dota. But tilting from time to time never cost me tons of reports, losing billions of games and ending up in the hidden pool. I can make the game bitter sometimes, but this...
Why are you tagging yourself by the way? Stop projecting maybe, frustrated fucktard?
I didn't exclude them 'cause "uuh let me manipulate the topic with my lies", I did because they're the minority of the games at current time. 2 out of 10 games are won because either I get surprisingly nice teammates or the enemy team gets beyond toxic fucks, it's obvious. But it's still 20% of the games, where in the ordinary pool it's the opposite. Everyone in the ordinary pool gets some of their games ruined by toxic people, that's for sure, but the percentages are reversed. Therefore this is a completely different pool, simple as that.
I remember the guy who i used as an example for my crystal maiden guide, he was 3.4 and i managed to get him to 4.4
The biggest thing i had to fix on him was the attitude, he was playing pos 5, but dear god did he flame everyone.
he called himself ''positive mental attitude'', but he ruins his carry's lane by shitty pulls and then goes to other lanes after feeding the offlaner 2 kills.
then he proceeds to flame his carry for not having any farm.
and the fact is: he was totally oblivious to his mentality.
p.s https://psychcentral.com/lib/15-common-defense-mechanisms/
and
LOL I'm in a game where 2 kids started fighting over mid. One picked Magnus, the other one randomed Warlock. The Omni said he would walk down mid. I picked Rubick and got all the wards and stuff hoping these kids will eventually calm down but Warlock came bot with no items and is ruining AM's lane by stealing farm and stuff and AM just walked into the enemy tower twice. Please tell me again these kind of games happen every once in a while and there's no separate pool.
_
We just moved top and I'm trying to supp AM as much as I can while Omni went jungling (?) and Warlock followed us spamming fatal bonds in lane and began to steal AM's farm and fuck up the creep equilibrium. Tell me I can't win games anymore 'cause all of a sudden I went from pretty decent to utterly trash in the same skill level and that matchmaking is in no way related to this.
_
Turns out the Gyro in their team is toxic too for his own admission, says he will report both Warlock and AM. Now I don't know how it's even possible but the scores are even (AM has mask of madness lol). AM saw we have a chance and decided to try his best to win if we report Warlock. Gyro just bought back after dying stupidly and the Spirit Break in their team just wrote that he's a retard in the all chat.
I'm writing this 'cause I wanna be as much accurate as possible about the games I find. This looks like a "toxic people everywhere" kind of game that we might actually end up winning. But still, toxic people everywhere.
_
Their Gyro finally decided to sell all his items and has, I swear to god, 115 tp scrolls lol. And he just walked down mid. The Spirit Breaker who 10 minutes ago flamed the Gyro in the all chat now died in an attemp to kill me by charging while ruptured and just rage-bought back. We're actually winning. If games like this look normal to you then I don't know what normality is anymore.
it doesn't, you just have a serious issue with selective memory.
it happens to everyone once in a while.
my other acc has like 4k beh score, i think it had like 1 beh score before i got onto it
i grinded it from 600 to 2.8k, i only ran into 3 intentional feeders, 1 of which being on the enemy team.
then stop getting reported dumbass. i already told you, beh score doesnt do anything. there is a hidden pool but its caused by recent reports enough with this thanks.
No I think I proved enough that I don't have anything to deny, that I've always been honest and that it's not about looking for excuses to why I lose so much now 'cause I don't need them.
So all the people who experienced this trash and have a low bhs are lying, the Valve developer was on drugs and didn't know what he was talking about. Alright, now I'm done for good.
Before around 3.5k mmr, games are easy whether you get shadow pooled or not. I have a 3.1k smurf that is just as bad as my 4k smurf in terms of feeding and abandoning but it still has a 90% win rate. There reaches a point though that 1v5 games are just too hard to win.
@Hidden Pool Destroyed My ... No definite proof has been provided for the impact of behaviour score on matchmaking yet. The only certain thing is shadow pool exists.
@Cookie Do you admit you were wrong about hidden pool? If not, abandon 2 games on your main, and tell me how long your mmr lasts.
@<3 Roshan fair enough. I personally give it for granted that bhs defines which pool a player is put into for logical reasons but I understand.
Aaaand I just got matched with the Gyro from last game. Getting matched with the same toxic people over and over is another thing that made me question the pool I'm in. Now tell me it's a casualty. There are 510.000 players playing Dota right now but I often get matched with the same people at least twice in a row. I'll keep doing my research and see if I come up with some new proof, hoping Volvo will eventually clarify the situation one day.
that's not what i was talking about, hidden pool's existence wouldn't matter to me, because you have to consider that a player who is naturally toxic would be constantly in the hidden pool and he'd get used to playing with other toxic players.
so someones 4k mmr for being a nice guy is the same as someone's 4k mmr for being an asshole.
It's 9 am in the morning ofc you play with the same people lol
@Cookie You clearly said hidden pool is non-existent and is an excuse for bad gameplay in your first comment:
You forget that most people get reported for performing poorly not for intentional feeding. The proof is empirical. How often do you get an intentional feeder as opposed to a bad player? I get an intentional feeder once per 100+ games. Getting toxic players in hidden pool is likely, but getting 4 bad players is more likely. Also, there really is no adjustment to function better with toxic players. They just do whatever they want and rage once things go wrong. Things only worsen the longer someone suffers in shadow pool. A study stated (https://psmag.com/social-justice/torture-permanently-alters-bodys-response-pain-69579), ‘It also found that non-physical torture—POWs said they were subjected to extreme isolation, deprivation, and mock executions—may have some role in the long-term alteration of physical pain response . . . In line with previous research, the torture survivors "exhibited generalized alterations in pain perception and modulation," meaning they felt more pain than most people when responding to the same kind of stimulus. Their bodies were also less able to "modulate" that pain's effects. The human body usually responds to pain dynamically, essentially distributing it. The ex-POWs bodies exhibited a worse ability to regulate physical pain than those of the soldiers who had not been taken prisoner.’ I assume they only tested physical pain because mental pain is hard to measure.
every game, i get them every game, and how many times you've seen me complain about bad teammates?
i get idiots every game, my last warlock game i played on this account i had a drow ranger who missed every last hit.
i would be surprised if i don't find a match where i have someone doing something utterly stupid.
but i'm real, not a kid trying to look for excuses, i play to win for myself. Also, since you like quoting my posts, try not to be selective about it:
the thing is, getting 4 bad players in a match is quite likely, but you have to remember if the pool exists the majority of the bad players will stay there a lot, meaning over time their skill will even out with that bracket.
aka those ''5 bad players at X mmr'' are as good as the ''5 good players at X mmr'' on the opposite team
i remember this same argument being held last year by some 4k's, not surprisingly these hidden pool arguments are almost always made by 4ks, and like i've shown: if you're good enough skill, you'll win regardless of what teammates you have.
because if a hidden pool were to exist, example the 2 month thing mentioned, people who are stuck there would've gotten used to it so much that their bad gameplay is their mmr.
So regardless if it exists or not, it won't matter.
Are you comparing dota 2 players with fucking prisoners of war ROFL I'm out xdddddd
just to make it clear for the blind: no, i'm not convinced to it
but i won't lie, i'm now opened to the idea due to the valve mention, BUT the fact is that was 3 years ago and there were countless matchmaking changes made between then.
So, till we get a testable method, like I've mentioned i'll still keep my stance at ''not true till proven''
The fact is, every single person in this thread who mentioned anything about hidden pool had a completely different and contradicting theory to the others to use the ''fill the gaps'' argument.
basically rustle's teapot
You did not answer the question. It was how often do you get intentional feeders as opposed to bad players. You seemed to have answered more along the lines of how often do you get bad teammates, which was not the question? How is this quote relevant? I am not complaining about intentional feeders. I am complaining about having bad teammates on my team due to shadow pool. You seemed to have largely misinterpreted my post.
Perhaps, but there is a key flaw with your statement. ‘over time their skill will even out with that bracket.’ The reporting system was changed thrice in the past 5 months. In mid-February, reports given were increased and their impact was increased. Around 2 months later, Valve greatly reduced the amounts of reports given because of the plethoric complaints on Reddit and by streamers. Then, about 3 weeks later, they slightly increased reports given. Before, it was basically 2 reports per month. This means there has really only been 1 month for shadow pool to adjust to the changes. The second flaw with your theory is, not everyone remains in shadow pool forever. People enter and leave the shadow pool. This would make it harder or take longer to balance the shadow pool. Finally, you assumed that both teams are always in the shadow pool. There has been no ‘verifiable proof’ of this.
The general rule of thumb is, they only change something if enough people complain about it, like with reports. Shadow pool does not get that amount of attention or belief.
@blum The point was prolonged mental suffering is bad long-term. If you have nothing to contribute, leave.
like anyone else, like 2 in 100 games.
the unluckiest i was was like 6 games in a row with intentional feeders like 2 months ago. After that i got all normal games, because as unlikely as it is, it's still just random chance.
I'm yet to be given an account where i'd get constant feeders.
also, i didn't assume that both teams are in the shadow pool, i said the good team(good considering non shadow pool) vs bad team
Again there's another issue with your argument, it's just a ''argument of the gaps'' where i can't make a counter argument due to the information being impossible to reach, all you did is make a new counter argument using my information.
But i'll play it your game:
and
and
The problem here is the mentioned ''2 month shadow pool'' by the developer, if a single team were to be getting bad players(shadowpooled) every game against let's say better co-ordinated players those players during that period would drop in mmr, TILL which i said where they get evened out with the skill of the bracket.
meaning if you drop 300-500 mmr, you'll play against worse enemies which you'll find easy to beat, but you wouldn't go up either because you can't win in the previous bracket without teamplay.
MEANING, That dropped MMR would be their new MMR, regardless of their teammates
because the enemy might be co-operative and nice to each other, but they just lack the skill to beat the shadowpooled players.
except there were dozens of reddit epidemics of people bitching about feeders, toxic, bad etc. teammates, meaning it would have been changed.
Just that the developer would never tell you.
Now let me find a flaw in your theory so you can use your magical ''fill the gaps'' argument for me:
If both teams aren't in the shadowpool, then there would be a Noticable discreptency on some players, meaning we could just find some X players who'd always get very very very frequent feeders on their team, and those feeders would also get feeders
and we could track that as verifiable proof
why? because those games would be super obvious, all games would be 20~ minute losses.
@blum The point was prolonged mental suffering is bad long-term. If you have nothing to contribute, leave.
ROFL
ure a fuckign autist if u believe that being a prisoner of war is ANY related to playign dota 2 at all
maybe u should go serve if u think its that fuckgin easy u moron
nice try at being a smartass though
but no ur pus$y ass gonna sit in the chari all day complainging about fuckign dota 2 hidden pool which may not even exist great man!!
@delusional retard.
So toxic retards everywhere? Sounds like scenario 4. That's more like it. You're finally coming around. Why not post from your hidden pooled account ? I don't see the games you are taking about
Exactly. The point is intentional feeders are extremely rare compared to bad players. Therefore, people who get reported are more likely to be bad players rather than intentional feeders. Also, I assume you are referring to your main account not your smurfs, right?
I assume you are referring to my claim about the report system? Valve mentioned all but the 3rd change to the report system in the patch notes.
I am using your information because I am disproving your claims. There is nothing wrong with using your information if it conveys my point.
Sorry, I misinterpreted your comment. Your clarification is in my favour though. ‘over time their skill will even out with that bracket.’ The fact that ‘even[ing] out’ is necessary for players in shadow pools means that mmr for shadow pool and non-shadow-pool players represents different skill. If mmr between the 2 pools were closely aligned, little to no ‘even[ing] out’ would be needed. This creates a balancing problem. If Valve was matching a shadow-pooled team against a non-shadow-pooled team, they are using 2 different systems of mmr that represent different things.
According to you, bad shadow-pooled players drop mmr. The problem here is that high mmr players do not get players once their mmr has already been evened out. They get them while their mmr is still high, meaning a team of high-mmr shadow-pooled players will get grouped with people who belong below their mmr. Incidentally, 4.6k mmr is high in Australia. The leader board mmr for the top Australian player that plays only in Australia is 6.9k mmr. That is about 2.6k mmr below Europe’s top player.
I fully agree with you here. The problem is, I never dropped mmr. I maintained my 4.6k through the 100+ games of shadow pool I played. Therefore, games never got easier for me. The shadow pool only made it extremely hard and annoying for me to climb. My previous paragraph is also relevant here. Not that it is relevant but following your logic and example, I should be at least a 5k player on average in the non-shadow pool.
The 2 month shadow pool was only specified for people who ran multiple instances of Dota. You literally said it yourself, ‘i'm pretty sure you're blind, what they mean there is running into bots due to running multiple steam instances at the same time.’ The developer I quoted initially said they match people with similar play style and gave examples of abandoning and throwing. This means each ‘play style’ could be controlled differently by Valve. There is no concrete proof for any other shadow pool but the botters’ one lasting 2 month.
Firstly, Valve has shadow pool to punish people. If their only intent was to punish, it is working if people are complaining. Secondly, go to your profile and click ‘show conduct’. It says 77% of players have 0–2 reports. Therefore, at maximum 23% of players are in the shadow pool. Therefore, if a shadow pool thread was posted on Reddit, around 23% players would support it and 77% would disprove of it. This could result in the thread being downvoted to oblivion or insufficient upvotes to have it in ‘hot’ threads.
This comment is hard to understand. Please elaborate. Be more specific with the ‘discrepancy’ you are referring to. ‘X players who'd always get very very very frequent feeders on their team’. How do you know such players exist? How is this related to the discrepancy? ‘those feeders would also get feeders’. It is unlikely for a player under the ‘feeding play style’ to meet another feeder because of the inaccurate use of the report system. This was shown during the report system change in February. Many innocent players were getting lp and mutes to the extent Valve had to greatly limit reports given out.There is no report button for poor gameplay, so they must report under ability abuse, communication abuse, and/or intentional feeding.
Anyway, I am going to sleep now.
@blum This is getting off topic. Cookie claimed that people adjust to toxic players over time. He has provided no proof for this. I have no obligation to disprove it. Secondly, the study stated ‘It also found that non-physical torture—POWs said they were subjected to extreme isolation, deprivation, and mock executions—may have some role in the long-term alteration of physical pain response’. Therefore, it is at least known that mental suffering causes long-term negatives. I am not suffering like tortured soldier, but the study does imply suffering causes negative long-term effects, which contradicts Cookie’s statement regarding positive adjustments to toxic players over time. I mean, I could also mention people with depression and anxiety disorders. Their disorder does not improve without therapy or medicine.
Valve developer comment > anything you say unless you know more Dota behind the scenes than the Valve developer does.
ppl who are likely to get reported are not bad players, but toxic players. toxic either in words, or in behaviour/playstyle. occasionally a bad player gets reported. but usually its the way the player chooses to play (let's say he's bad) but comes off as annoying and toxic even if he doesnt say anything gets that player reported.
usually its deserved. its not just about being 'bad'. but its usually about being selfish in a team game.
can all hidden pool theorists at least spell out if they believe devils get matched with devils, or if devils get matched with angels? to make your arguments clearer. these are 2 very different things about the hidden pool. and its important.
Rofl
you guys are all over the place with your arguments.
consider this: 2 equally toxic teams. the losing team is usually saltier than the other. the winning team will seem cooperative. having less reason to rage. no surprise there right?
have any of u conspiracy theorists considered that losing's correlation with toxicity may not mean that toxicity causes your losing, but that you're inability to play properly is causing the toxicity?
and it's why its hard to provide evidence using your own experiences. it is very likely biased. the only way is to observe behaviour scores of both teams in a large sample of your games. so you control for the fact that you might actually suck major dick and be triggering everyone u meet causing them to destroy their items.