stand infront of the acid and zone him, it wont keep him out 100% of the time but it works
Can u just post some good replays vs him ? I didn't see any alch go against OD. It felt to me that i coudn't just do shit. My range is small & his acid hurt a lot. U can check my last game as OD. I was totally raped. I'm curious esp about first 5-10min how to lane against that shit.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/519481157
I had no farm at all. 18 lh in 5min....Then one of our team abaddon. What could have i done diffrently in that first 5min ? Last hitting under tower was quite difficult.
Dazzle!!!!!!! ZzZzZzAPP!! Try it out some day... mid dazzle is Really good against melee mid heros! Just get out of mid lane and start team fighting past lvl 6 or 7!
@ Sampson
Yes again with supports roam in and gank mid! Not enough on the community talking about this, or in public matches. Need MOAR mid ganks! Please start a thread Sampson!
How can i aggro creep when his acid spray range is ridiculus ?! He casted it near my tower. I didn't push the lane. OD range is not big so it's hard to LH outside of it. I'm curious - how u win this lane as OD. I have never seen Alch as counterpick to OD, so i guess i shoudn't lose that match up so badly. So - how to win ?
Depends on the lineup, you could just ask for ganks, he is paper, until 6. With OD, the new one, you can hardly win vs alche, altought when he spams acid, he will push a lot , so you might get few cs uder twr. Dk, viper, clock,necro,could win vs him. Altought necro suck as mid
The reason why you don't see Alch vs OD matchup, is simply because pub players don't have a brain and think that OD rapes everyone.
The hero always was extremely overrated.
And the latest nerf to OD is basically insignificant.
btw Phoenix works quite decently against such DoT's, because his Tranquils don't get disabled by it.
In Starlader alchemist vs od mid, alchemist got raped badly, 3 last hits.
ur fucking awful!
asking for help first 5-10 minutes mid?
are u fucking crazy??
and u pwn him level 1 right away who gives a fuck about level 1 acid.... u just zone him out and he shouldnt get enough level to handle you and by then no mana... you should be level 3 when he gains 2 and then 5 before he can do anything aaaaaaand already fucked over his mana supply! soul ring? who gives a shit he doesnt have the mana pool
@benao, you should learn how the game works. Soul Ring doesn't require any mana pool.
You talk big, but you lack basic understanding of the game.
Benao - it's called roaming...Supports need to roam mid + as Smaug said - u don't need mana pool for soulring. I'm not a good player, I rate myself as average, but saying i'm awful, when u don't know basics (soulring) is just retarded...
u do realize acid spray costs 130+ right? by the time he has spams soul ring he wont be near your level! having a constant 10-20 in mana pool until then the spam should be minimal and u shouldnt have any problem killing him with the huuuuuge advantage on levels and items for when it even out a bit, using all his skills just to keep staying in the lane using ulti after soul ring to get the bit of mana back to use spray again and be useless thereafter, even imprisoning him at that point making him even mroe useless
mass aggro and last hit ez like EZ
if u ose its just cause u suck////he's better than you
It's impossible to get every deny & lh vs quelling blade alchemist (yeah, he bought QB so it was easy for him to lh). I've focused more on lh than denies coz of his QB. Prison duration on lvl 1 is not good enough to give me clear last hitting advantage & i would get more dmg from harassing him than I would do to him, using acid + creeps attacking me (OD small range doesn't help with it). I need lvl 3 to get lh advantage (2sec prison), it's hard to deny vs QB + under my tower, when i'm more focused on last hitting. When I get lvl 3, Alchemist for sure has soul ring (800 gold esp when rushing is nothing). He doesn't need mana from ulti to cast acid...Soul ring has 30sec cd & acid has 22 duration so he can easily spam it. Also how can u assume he is better than me ? What's so difficult with lh with QB & spamming acid ? It's much harder to play OD in this match up.
how the hell is alch supposed to beat OD mid?
Frankly, kinda surprised that someone with so many OD games would have an issue with alch spray. Its a melee hero, just astral him and harass him out of lane. His acid spray makes it easy as hell to deny his creeps as well.
Without trolling/flaming w.e, I would conclude that OP was unprepared for the match up, and didn't approach the match up correctly, resulting in a loss. Take what you experienced and learn from it.
also, all the talk of "roaming supports" is rather moot. If he has supports roaming on you, then get your own supports to help you, or take advantage of the fact that their supports are going to be under-leveled when they fail to gank you, and will sap Alchs xp.
You don't need to "win" mid to do well mid. Mids job is to get xp and not die. If you are having trouble in the match up, focus on harassing and denying over last hitting.
qb costs 225 i think? he needs a bit of regen so 125 and im guessing he starts with stout shield cause if not he gets punished pretty hard, i'd probably go with stats no quelling but whatever. u just hit him non stop, ofc u lose hp but your creeps wont go down as fast either, he will be trying to last hit at his tower next cause due to the aggro only thing affecting creeps will be acid.. u do know u can stop the aggro targeting your creeps right? just start with tangos and 3 branches, at least 2 creeps fast bottle vs what alchemist? he will max have 8 creeps and fuck no he wont get that first 2 waves, heal spam more and he's fucked no mana already, u may force him to buy bottle which in turn will delay his soul ring more and cause more xp difference
im up for a 1v1 challenge me using od vs any of u guys going alchemist tomorrow after i get sick of house of cards
well i agree with benao about everything except where the creeps will be. If he spams acid OD will end up with creeps under his tower. The negated armor on the ODs creeps should out-weight the alch's creeps agroing OD.
Then again as the OD i would take advantage of the acid spray and focus on denying Alchs creeps.
@the guy who said he'd not have enough mana to spam it. He would because of the soul ring, it increases your max mana for that time so basically covers that up.
But realistically even if alch drops his spray on you you should be hitting him 2-3 times every time he walks up (starting at level 3). Standard 1-3 with range vs melee but you don't want to be as aggressive since ur kinda weak.
And if you really need it alch is even easier to gank mid than an OD is so have supports help if you're having a hard time.
Also the starladder game was pretty tough to watch. Think it was Fata's alch that had like 2 cs at 8 mins in the game because he was gettin raped by OD. Find one of the games in which he played alch mid vs od in SL.
the game you're talking about where an alch gets wrecked by OD is Sigma vs Na'Vi.
on alchs team a nyx assassin and another support roam in to try and get a kill on Dendi, Dendi survives, and alchemist and the nyx die. Getting 2 kills worth of xp even split between an OD and a cm makes it ez mode for any mid regardless of the matchup. if the 2 kills went the alchs way for example, he would have been able to make mid alot easier i think, but it happened to go in ODs favour who already had an advantage
I guess people don't know that OD's mana drain can be a drawback if the other person knows what he's doing. It's basically a free regeneration for mana... but I'll let you guys sort out how that works. I won't spoil the secret so quick.
Does people think that OD is all powerful and cant lose a lane ? ROLF
btw soul ring does give you flat mana pool if you have less than 150 mana
@Dorkly
he is........you have to be braindead to lose lane as OD, tho winning your lane does not mean you win the game
I don't understand why people think Alch is just going to start with soul ring, not to mention quelling blade, regen and some gg branches. By the time he gets soul ring he should already have been zoned out and losing lane.
you win mid if you succeed in mid game, not if you fail to last hit under tower you suck OP and smaug kill yourself for picking OD only and complaining he's not OP
i think winning mid game and winning mid are separate things, granted i agree completely with icex3. i think od's not really op at the moment, the hero's really braindead though, you can be the dumbest player on planet and still make it work by just spamming astral on every cd on your opponent and outlasthitting him with twice his damage.
Well u should out last hit alch but he is going to get a soulring with time and push the lane and OD cant push lane for shit plus lvl one acid spray does good damage already. I think you are probably going to out last hit but he is the one that will get runes.
Plus people think that you can let your enemy without mana at lvl 1 but you actually need 2 or 3 stacks of a lvl2 astral. Or even lvl 3.
Anyway i see a lot of people here that never plays Od theoryzing about the hero.
You have lvl 2 astral pretty quick though, 2 mins or so. L3 astral is at level 5, 4-5 mins. You can take a point in Q and orb attack with the extra mana from astral. A bottle is not a bad idea early. I think maxxing astral is not really neccesary and its better to go for the passive so you can spamming your Q earlier if you are feeling pushed back.
Acid spray is stupid as it will just push the lane and make denying really easy.
@Jammin
I didn't talked about this one (I don't remember yours). I talked about the same trash said:
trash :
"Also the starladder game was pretty tough to watch. Think it was Fata's alch that had like 2 cs at 8 mins in the game because he was gettin raped by OD. Find one of the games in which he played alch mid vs od in SL."
It was pure 1v1 as I don't remember any gank, they had troubles on others lane too so they kind of let alchemist mid alone just geting exp. Here is the thing if you go for soul ring you wont have that much regen and od should benefit from it, and od will probably have bottle if you don't you make a mistak as od.
anyone?
gotta verified what i said was correct...
pass dotabuff
ive been waiting a lot... ^
Even with all the logistical issues of buying quell blade and soul ring that early, if he is acid spraying all your creeps they're going to die somewhat evenly which means they'll all be low at a similar time and he can't last hit all of them, you should be able to deny. And being ranged and able to attack without moving you should be able to deny a couple vs his last hits. I agree standing in acid is rough and causes you to kind of freak out and maybe not know what to do. I always suck mid vs kunka cus of that cleave even though many people say it's so easy against him. But alch, doesn't seem that bad on OD.
^ beating Kunkka in lane is easy, because you can just scare him away, beating Alche is simply impossible, you can only win the last hit fight. You can't scare him with anything except your allies gank him.
That's my point, people are always like just zone out kunkka, but I can never do it. So even thought you can in theory destroy alch, it might not be as easy in practice.
@Sampson ("it helps flat mana gain items (clarity/bottle) its no big secret......")
You are wrong. You don't need clarities/bottle. All you need is some int items, or just clever playing. I recently raped an admittedly bad OD as Phoenix doing the technique JUUMAD mentioned.
Any frequent OD player should know this, and anyone who overrates OD like an idiot doesn't know this obviously.
The technique itself is surprisingly simple: Use all of your abilities so you have no mana anymore, let OD astral you a few times (not too often, else he will destroy you with his ult), then everytime one of his Astral stacks runs out (for example every 30 seconds if you only allow 2 stacks of Astral), you will get +100 mana (in case of Astral level 3). That means additional +200 mana per minute you can use on harassing OD with your spells.
Laning against OD is like having a permanent clarity buff on you.
@Let the Wookie win
You can't zone out people that well, not with OD, he is way too squishy for such task. The idea of laning against Kunkka is basically buying lots of regen items, and auto attacking him in lane. Kunkka is rather squishy, he needs to come close to do one of his attacks. You can easily do as much - if not more - damage to him by just auto attacking him like his tidebringer does to you.
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I even lost to him as OD. He bought soul ring & spammed his acid. Harassment was too big. How to lane against this shit ?