General Discussion

General DiscussionIs it actually wrong to see battlefury as a "farming only" item on PA?

Is it actually wrong to see battlefury as a "farming only" item on PA? in General Discussion
Mayushii desu!

    So last game I had a pa who went deso into battlefury (the enemy had a CK among other things). However, the thing is, although we had insane single target physical damage output with corrosive haze + deso + medallion + bloodrage, this PA did a fuckton of damage in AoE as well, this guy was cleaving people really hard. Often when you think strong cleave that deals a fuckton of damage in fights you think sven or tiny, but that 40% cleave on a PA actually does wonders, it seems. Also worth noting that he went deso into battlefury, so he got his bursty item first, then got the aoe presence to deal with CK (though he still needed some help until he got really fat).

    There's a stigma around battlefury PA (well, considering how many people go boots battlefury it isn't surprising) and naturally in this game it's logical that he goes bf against CK, but I find it weird that people see it as a shit item for fights when it can (situationally) be pretty good.

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    chessgeek10

      People dislike battlefury on PA because it isn't meta. However, at one time, it used to be, so that item can't actually be as bad as some consider it to be. It doesn't allow her to have as much early teamfight burst, but it provides some great stats and allows her to snowball her farm until late game, where the situational cleave can turn teamfights. Most games I don't get it, but if I know I'll be fighting clone and illusion heroes, I'll sacrifice the early game and build battlefury into desolator. I've nearly always been successful when doing so.

      Battle fury PA has a nearly 60% winrate for a reason, so it's disappointing that so many hate on this build. I'd much rather Phantom Assassins build Battle Fury than things like Ring of Aquila, Blade Mail, or Maelstrom.

      NA+Cl.YB`a

        id only go bf against pl and ck, but i wudnt pick pa against those heroes sooooo
        like ck just buys silver edge and obliterates pa

        u cant even rush bf or ur too squishy, something like deso vanguard bkb bf maybe
        even then ull need an ac or butterfly and abyssal, probably satanic or skadi as well
        idk the matchup is decent early but pa cant deal with ck lategame unless they rlly cc the fuck out of him

        mechanical feel kb

          Or you can just not fuck around with CK with phantasm illusions

          Mayushii desu!

            Or you can just not fuck around with CK with phantasm illusions

            Yes, because when the enemy team pushes high ground with aegis and phantasm, you just stand there and let them throne you.
            Sure, you'd prefer to dodge CK with ult (just like you'd dodge a sven), but that's such an idealistic scenario it's laughable. As a carry, you can't keep avoiding the enemy carry for most of the game unless you're like antimage or some shit and your job isn't to fight anyone until you get some items (and even then, maybe you didn't have the last pick so they picked a hero you can't ever hope to kill)

            The thing is, you can't just throw daggers around while your team is dying, you need to do something or you'll lose the game, pa isn't a hero who can hold high ground against a team with CK in it.

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            mechanical feel kb

              Sure, you'd prefer to dodge CK with ult (just like you'd dodge a sven), but that's such an idealistic scenario it's laughable.

              Ending the game fast, hello? Dota isn't just about lategame scenarios
              Just because BF is the least dogshit solution against lategame CK doesn't mean you have to buy it

              mechanical feel kb

                Although I have to agree people are too dead set on setting their eyes on the default build, but then again, most of the time they're the most universal anyway

                Mayushii desu!

                  1) You don't always have the option of ending the game fast.
                  2) CK with okay farm and phantasm is strong at level 12, too, especially against teams that don't have sufficient AoE
                  3) Well, you don't have to buy a solution to a problem you have, but you know what you also don't have to do? You don't have to win the game.

                  mechanical feel kb

                    Is BF the most optimal (read = least dogshit) solution against lategame CK? Yes
                    But in some games you could've ended early, you ended up slacking and have to build sub optimal items such as BF on PA, eblade on AM, etc
                    As for retards ranting on you for deviating from the default build, well, why do you care, actually

                    inx4c

                      I would go bf whenever i want on pa
                      Its not even bad

                      Mayushii desu!

                        The whole point of this post is that "yo i git battlufuri 2 farm for lategame" mindset doesn't have to apply if you get battlefury. Maybe you get a damage item and battlefury on top of that, and then just crit half the team instead of just one guy?

                        The whole point is that it is actually a decent fighting item if you can afford it. Also if you are talking about ending early - deso + bfury gives you insane wave clear and great tower damage. Sure, maybe you really need a bkb in which case go for it, but as far as killing people goes, bfury is not half bad actually.

                        inx4c

                          Its not supposed to be bought as a fighting item. The case when you cleave whole team at the same time is so rare. Battlefury doest give you any stats you need for fighting. You are still squishy af with bf. Bf gives you regen to farm with l, cleave to clear waves quickly, reliably and 60% dmg against creeps.

                          inx4c

                            You get battlefury to farm till min 25-35

                            Metsis

                              Battlefury is a farming tool... Good on PA only against certain heroes, like PL or CK or NP. Battlefury does give damage, but the regen is pointless in a team fight and the Cleave can be quite useless unless the enemy team is packed with melee heroes. BF is good for farming creeps and neutrals, but that is quite a price to pay for farming (4k+ gold). AM can make it work with his blink ability, but it is quite time consuming if you are just walking from camp to camp. I'd still go Mjollnir over BF on PA. That is more AOE damage with the shock bounces and more attack speed means more of those wonderful crits... Even if they are not as high in damage.

                              bearcat0611

                                in my mind if you ever end up in a like hour and a half long game with a ton of farm you'd switch deso out for battle fury, because it's more damage, cleave is aoe damage in a teamfight and cleave helps push lanes. I generally wouldn't recommend deso bf together unless you desperately need more aoe.

                                E=mceutt^2

                                  PA is dogshit for CK, CK could crush her easily --- Diffusal , hit hit hit hit boom PA is dead

                                  bearcat0611

                                    diffusal doesn't get rid of blur...

                                    mechanical feel kb

                                      Hey bearcat you missed smth

                                      48.28%
                                      WIN RATE

                                      overcome

                                        so what is your point exactly? CK does nothing to PA with bkb, PA oneshots ck with corrosive haze

                                        bearcat0611

                                          it's a mismatch lategame. CK gets extremely tanky and ck with 5 illusions doesn't really care about blur and he can just get mkb if he really wants.

                                          ETdAWESOME

                                            My feeling about PA battle fury is that it turns her into an AM.

                                            Mayushii desu!

                                              My game is actually kind of a stupid example, because CK did not get a platemail so PA didn't have to build too much damage to kill him.

                                              The point is, I had a medallion, which is -7 armor, PA had a deso which is -7 more, slardar had Corrosive Haze which is -20 an I would bloodrage PA when she BKBs in fights

                                              This PA would deal 40% bonus damage to a hero who kinda just lost 34 freaking armor so she would destroy his main hero while illusions casually die.

                                              But in general I see your points about bfury being a bad fighting item in general, my point was that it's not absolutely dogshit, and it is good in situations where people clump up around you (too many melees, treants, vacuum, etc) so I do understand that for the money you can get way more useful things in an average game, though I guess having an illusions clear for CK's illusions is just something you need to have against the hero.

                                              This CK built kind of stupid items tho, he needed armor so bad (or a way to consistently remove corrosive haze), though I was planning on building a halberd but decided against it in the end when I realized this CK dies every fight because we focus him.

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                                              what?

                                                the one and only AM who suit with battlefury every game.
                                                and ember in situational match.

                                                Jacked

                                                  even if i needed to farm on pa i might not get battlefury.

                                                  i might get it against illusions, and the need for waveclear.

                                                  Dire Wolf

                                                    People used to build it quite often as a 2nd item on PA actually. The thing is your game is a bit of an outlier because PA got deso 14 mins and battlefury 19 mins. Ring of health was bought at 14 mins along with finishing deso, but still 3650g in 5 mins = 700 gpm. It looks like you guys wiped them around 17 mins so PA must have gotten a bunch of those kills. Under normal circumstances PA probably gets it at like 21 mins, couple mins later.

                                                    My point is your PA was rollin', probably could've bought anything and won the game easily. Their picks are awful for dealing with PA. Ck and Od still have to deal with blur to deal dmg. Mkb on ck is awful, notice he never got to AC or heart in that game cus he needed bkb (thanks shaker!) and mkb. Od never got to mkb or bloodthorn. No silver edge carriers available. And vs techies who just sucks.

                                                    Anyway it's not bad to go battlefury, it is 55 dmg on a hero with a big passive dmg boost. What else gives dmg that PA goes besides deso? You're not building daedulus, mkb is usually super late or situational, satanic is 50 dmg so that might be better. But usually the utility of having basher -> abyssal is a lot better than having cleave. I would only do it vs illusion heroes or clumped up melee teams, maybe like with a dark seer or magnus on my team.

                                                    Mayushii desu!

                                                      Well the thing with this game is that PA was the primary damage dealer, while the rest of the team mostly amped her damage so she got a lot of kills and did a lot of damage.

                                                      The reason we didn't end the game earlier is because it's pretty hard to break HG against techies, so they had that going for them. She could have had a BKB instead of a battlefury at 19 minutes, but the rest of the team would be weak at that point and we'd inevitably feed into their HG while PA maybe survives, it just wasn't a good timing to go HG.

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                                                      bearcat0611

                                                        I like satanic, especially on pa. It's a lifesteal item and lifesteal is amazing on pa as well as it's 600 health (I think) on a hero that often times values hp more than armor and in addition it's a fairly good damage item. The only problems are it's cost and fitting it into your timing.

                                                        O.J.'s Juicy Bag of Nuts

                                                          I hope you realize that bfury doesn't improve pa's farm much. Pa kills camps especially ancients equally fast with deso.

                                                          There's a certain point to farming when it's not your damage that's the bottleneck but the time spent walking between camps that limits your farm

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                                                          Dire Wolf

                                                            I don't think satanic build is an issue at all. Casual morbid mask, deso, bkb if you need it, basher is usually next for standard build, then you just go big satanic finish.

                                                            Cookie

                                                              What inx said is true, you simply get it for farming

                                                              there's 100x better fighting items on PA

                                                              the opposite is like going for medalion on an alchemist, then farming instead of fighting.

                                                              lifedancer

                                                                I use bf for farming and fighting. It's super good

                                                                H^

                                                                  Ye u should listen to what B-God is saying.

                                                                  Stentorian

                                                                    deso is easily better than bfury. you have to try it to see the difference.

                                                                    it increases your kill potential more than bfury, and keeps opponents in check when you're always trying to kill them. PA doesn't show on the minimap. Make use of it by not cleaving jungle creeps.

                                                                    if you're farming with bfury, it gives time to enemy heroes to farm items to counter you.

                                                                    Bfury isn't a throw item, it's just not an optimal item on PA.

                                                                    Everyone freaks out though when someone gets bfury on pa. But that's a difference issue (you should mute everyone always anyways).

                                                                    RIP

                                                                      i'm pretty sure that if you play against heroes that dont like to get mkb AND that are hard for you to early kill, you can go battle fury i guess

                                                                      NA+Cl.YB`a

                                                                        deso into straight satanic is legit