General DiscussionQuestion for people who climbed MMR recently

If you want to climb, you need to improve, if you want to improve you need to LEARN from your losses. You should not be grinding 10 games a day in order to try and climb MMR, you should be watching every single replay where you lose a game and take notes on those replays.

Then try to learn from the notes you took and improve.

spam storm every gamee

I think Im going to start practicing mid heroes on my smurf cuz safelane is kind of low impact till u get ur shadow blade or whatever on slark

@kitrak oh so thats why everyone always focus me :/ i get it now

It depends on your personality and ability to learn stuff. If you can play 10 games in a row and still not get tired/stay focues, then the more you play, the faster you will improve. However, for most people maximum amount of games is ~3-5.

Well since I have 9 accounts I use trash accounts like this one during the evening when all the games are full of stacks. I also use trash accounts if I am tired or just want to play ARLP as semi-AFK or just want to throw the game.

The accounts I care of I have not played on for over a week.

I usually do 1-3 solo games a day now which is a change from my usual 1-3 a month. I pad this out with a number of party games and I feel that has helped me to climb the most as I find that most people that play exclusively solo queue don't really move very far or have big swings or winning streaks then loss streaks.

It helps me keep my cool in my solo games which in turn helps hold the team together which win or lose makes for better quality games. I usually just support and while I don't main any of the bread winners (Meepo, ES, Brood, Storm) I can still climb decently playing the former.

My advice is solo queue with padded party to keep things fun and help identify if you're performing badly that day so you may want to avoid solo queuing if you're into your MMR.

I have two new main accounts aka smurfs that I care for.

I have even assigned 5-15 heroes to each account. It means that I will play a specific set of heroes for account X and another set of heroes for account Y. In this way it will be easy to see if I can climb faster as core or support. I can also see which heroes I climb with more.

And this accounts I will play early during the days to avoid stacks.

Getting better /= Playing more games

You should be watching your replays and learning from your mistakes, most of the times deaths are an indication of error and its easy to see since it shows up on the scoreboard. Other things like positioning/potential kills are not recorded therefore they are harder to learn. Knowing the skill timings/damage/interactions are also important while understanding the game.

Here is a simple analogy of why dota is difficult to learn

Lets say you are diving a SF under tower as ursa. There are 2 possible outcomes 1 you kill him or 2 you die. Now lets pretend he had a stick with 15 charges but because you caused him to panic you got the kill and assume that you made the right decision. If we assume that out of 50 identical scenarios you killed him 30 and died 20 times. Now judging from the result it seems like you made the right decision but in fact you didn't and you never learn.

Assume the exact same thing happens but this time a support is missing. Sometimes when you dive him it is successful however other times you get countered and assume it was "luck" that a support was there.

I play 1-5 a day.

0 to 8 a day or so. been winning a lot recently

There isn't a number - learn to understand how you are feeling - after x number of games you will probably start feeling angry and frustrated - then is a good time to stop :)

" after x number of games you will probably start feeling angry and frustrated "

NICE GAME DOTA 2

I dont watch my repleys usually. Only if I want to see what a specifik player did. That happens maybe 1 time in 200 games.

Otherwise I learn more by just playing another game or watch youtube

X=1 right?

there's many ways to play the game

i'm not 7k, only 6k, but i have a lot of friends that are 7k or around there

generally speaking to get 7k+ you need to be decent enough already but also have 2-3 heroes mastered that are either abuseable or quite strong in the current patch. think meepo, ta, slark, troll, etc.

if you're playing to gain mmr it's going to be much different than playing to get better or playing for winrate. obviously u need to have some base level to be able to abuse it in the first place.

http://www.dota2.com/leaderboards/

Murs, how complete or incomplete do you think this list is? Are there a lot of duplicate accounts for top players? How high can pro-level players really start from calibration?

I think that the skill difference between someone who's 7K and someone who's 6.5 is not that large. Most of the people at 7K are single hero spammers so I feel that as far as skill is concerned anything above like 6.5 is just wins rather than skill gained.

there's lots of inactive players that would be on the leaderboards if they were active

i don't think u can calibrate higher than high 4ks after they changed it

u used to be able to calibrate at mid to high 5ks

most of my friends calibrated around 5k-5.5k

Murs

How can you hsve a lot of friends on 7k when there should be like 5 all together?

there's more than 5 that's for sure

i know 4 personally

i think the difference beetwen an 6k and 7k it is the ability to lead a team and play around it

I have 4 accounts on my friends list 6k + who are not on the leader boards although their scores are high enough for the region. So I wondered about the relevance of the leaderboard. Many top players I know have several accounts. Also it's hard to judge MMR vs wins when you are 6k +. One guy has enough + ranked wins he would have gained an additional 6.7k MMR after calibration if they all counted 25 points.

For those of you whose games are always 25 points => what happens is there is often no one in the region who can match a score that high and so Valve's matching system just gives up and makes the MMR unbalanced for that game. The players who sustain winrates over 60% for hundreds of games are in that situation, usually there is no one in the region qualified to play against them when they que.

Murs, how many 6k + players do you think there really are? How many 7k + players?

Relentless

I am going to assume that you are talking about solo players

"The players who sustain winrates over 60% for hundreds of games are in that situation, usually there is no one in the region qualified to play against them when they que."

You need to be a lot more skilled then the other 9 people in order to do that or just spam heroes and other stuff that are unblanced in the current patch.

I have hard to imagine how anyone can be THAT more skilled to make that kind of difference considering how skilled everyone is on that level.

Compare it the CHampions league in soccer or anything like that. I dont think there is any soccer player that can jump between teams and sustain a win rate on 60%.

well there is

anyone above 5.5k can get shafted by mm, especially at non-peak times

this is why you get all these 6k ppl complaining about 4ks, they get paired up with 4ks and the 4ks inevitably feed

Here are examples of how it works. Player is 6.5K MMR, joins solo que => the next highest player in the que is 5.3k MMR. There are a number of 5k players available So the teams look like this.

Example 1:

6.5k vs 5.3k
4.8k 5.1k
4.9k 5.2k
4.9k 5.0k
4.8k 4.9k
----------------------------
avg 5.18 vs avg 5.1 .... game worth close to 25 points. But really no one is near the 6.5k players skill level. No matter who is against him, he crushes them.

Example 2

next highest player is 4.8k, and they are clustered at 4.8k

6.5k vs 4.8k
4.8k 4.8k
4.8k 4.8k
4.8k 4.8k
4.8k 4.8k
-----------------------
avg 5.14 avg 4.8k => win is certain and worth only 10 points instead of the normal 25. Loss would be -40 points, but he won't lose it.

That is why the top players sustain far higher than 50% win despite the matching system trying to make fair games. When there is no one in the que it just does #1 player vs #2 player. It does the same in Team matching. At the top of the que #1 MMR team will be vs #2 MMR team, #3 vs #4 in the que. Since only a few people are in the que, matches can be quite unbalanced.

So the players who can rise to 6k or 7k are doing it by consistently wining games when their team is legitimately, objectively worse at dota.

there's probably around 30-50 7k+ players and a couple hundred 6k+ players

For those of you whose games are always 25 points => what happens is there is often no one in the region who can match a score that high and so Valve's matching system just gives up and makes the MMR unbalanced for that game. The players who sustain winrates over 60% for hundreds of games are in that situation, usually there is no one in the region qualified to play against them when they que.

this is wrong
the matchmaking doesn't bother to try to put similar mmrs together in the same game at the super high point
it would rather balance 6k+ players with 4ks and 3ks than put all the high rated players in the same game on us east/west
europe is different because larger pool
i believe they try to minimize que time rather than have balanced games

So you don't get 5 point games anymore? I still get them in party matching. I lost a game for -5 yesterday, the other stack had 500 more MMR average.

I mean, they would give you all the way down to 3k to make it a 25 point game?

they don't only match by average but also by variance so it can't go super super low

Yeah, I thought there was some new limit for variance. Do you know what it is? I have been unable to join parties with certain pro players in ranked games because of there being too large an MMR gap.

"Do you know what it is? I have been unable to join parties with certain pro players in ranked games because of there being too large an MMR gap." - Relentless

can you search help right now? everyone would benefit from this

let me rephrase what relentless said for you ppl who worship him like some god here

"i am a 3k mmr player, struck down by valve for being a peasant support player, now that i'm back to playing dota after being absent for 2 years, i have been trying to be matched with 6k+ players with my low mmr"

^_^ L M A OOOOOOOOO psycopath

Relentless for party ranked there is a restriction of max 2k mmr difference between the highest and the lowest.

i don't know what the variance limit is for solo que but i've played games recently on this account where the average mmr was 4k and i had low 3k players on my team

that's almost a 3000 mmr difference and that game was a couple weeks ago...

Idk if there is a variance limit in that sense. I know they take variance into account during matchmaking between teams though, like you won't get a 7k 2k 2k 2k 2k vs 3k 3k 3k 3k 3k. They have the same mean but a big difference in variance. Instead they would perhaps make it 7k 2k 2k 2k 2k vs 4k 4k 3k 2k 2k which has the same mean but less difference in variance. It's still not a balanced matchup ofc bc the 7k guy has so much more but you get the idea.

Jussi, that sounds very likely to be true. It fits the style of math Valve likes to use. Did they write anywhere exactly how it is determined? I am able to join a party ranked with someone about 3k MMR higher than me sometimes, but not always depending on party composition.

2k MMR differences don't seem to usually trigger the block. http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1451160363 this game had about a 2k MMR range on it yesterday. I don't remember if it was over or under.

Relentless, don't pull the facts out of your ass. 3k solo doesn't have an impact on party. If a 6k solo player has 1k party, then he will at maximum be able to queue up with 3k party players.
And that's the worst thing about party. High solo low party get matched against low solo high party and this disbalances pubs so much.
And for solo – I've been matched with 7.3k while being above 5k during that time, at the same time we had a 3k player in our team. That was in summer. I'm pretty sure it was on w33has stream.

Perhaps you could specify exactly what you don't believe about what I wrote? It seems like you wanted to disagree, but then actually did not disagree.

Yet another autist who has zero reading comprehension.
Why do people with sub140(in your case sub80) IQ get to use computers???

Ok I guess you forgot what you wanted to say, or don't feel it is important. That's fine. I just wanted to give you a chance if it really was important to you.

Yep. Proving your autism once again. I told you to read my post again and what you're doing is you keep saying random things.
Literally a modern feminist or a theist in action.
If you can't find the difference between words party and solo then I have bad news for you...

I believe what he is contesting is your point about party MMR. just a couple of weeks back I couldn't queue with a friend 2015 party MMR below me. No comment on solo.

I see you actually don't understand what you wrote, and certainly don't understand what I wrote...or you are just a troll. In any case Jussi is very likely to be correct that they use a variance limit for the party rather than a hard range limit on party MMR. It is not clear how this variance would interact with solo que players, but the simplest situation would be to require the same variance limit on the resulting team that would be required for a party. So most likely Valve applies the variance to limit what parties and solo que players can be placed together on a team with the same criteria they apply to limit who can join a party.

If you find that you cannot join a party of 3, it may be possible with this system for you to join the party of 5 by having a lower MMR player join first making it 4 players and changing the variance to make adding a 5th lower player possible.

So for example it may make a difference in which order your friends want to join a party. If you have a 5k, 5k, 4k, 3.5k, 3k group, the system may not let the 3k guy join with just the two 5k players. But after the 4k and 3.5k have joined the variance for 5 will allow the 3k to join even though he could not be in a party of 3 with the two 5k players.

I hope this helps people to understand how to more easily construct their party que with friends who may have a wide range of MMRs.

you fucking retard, party and solo is separate you insufferable piece of shit, do you even read half of the shit you say or any of the accusations/lies you throw at people you spineless fuck

i mean if you're going to lie about working for NASA, shouldn't you be a little bit smarter

holy shit this kids actually fucking serious GOOD LORD SHOOT ME

Oh my god you're talking out of your ass again.
They allow you to join a party but they don't allow you to start a game if the deltaminmax is above 2000.
Once again, you have no reading comprehension, logic, sense of shame, abilities to look for source before speculating. No wonder you're just a clown that everybody laughs at.

Jussi is talking about solo unless I'm very mistaken.... Party is an enforced hard cap.