General DiscussionHow can people be so bad at this game after so many games?

lots of ppl do not aim to learn, and just play dota when they are tired after their work or w/e. eventually u get better, but if you dont try to learn, this process is very slow.

btw i got a guy in my friendlist who has 500 games and 680 mmr. does he learn fast or not?

Did u play in 2k bracket or played Dota 1 ? I started playing Dota 2, never played Dota 1. When u have friends who are 2k MMR & they're ur teachers u get a lot of bad habits (mid should constantly gank, buy HoT on every hero, kills are what matters, u should help team & constantly 5v5 from minute 8 etc.). I described my case, if I didn't read forums, get coached by higher skill players I would still be 2-3k MMR player. I have around 4k games & I'm 4.3k solo. If I got a 5-6k friends coaching me from the start I think I would need 1.5k games to be where I'm now instead 4k games. People just learn from the environment & if u close them in 2k enviroment they will repeat their mistakes over & over again, because they would think that's the way how u should play the game. Another reason is people just don't want to improve, don't know how to improve or they believe improving is impossible.

Mmr doesnt mean shit in the end because its just a game.
But generally it just shows how much the person cares about dota. Like 2-3 years ago I was really passionate about it; always watching steams/informative videos etc, and play the game a lot more that I do now. I havent played a single game of dota from summer 2013 to '14 and since then I get bored of it quickly.
edit: i dont even remember the last time I tried to watch proffesional dota

this shitty patch doesn't help the situation either*

^ your statement melts steel.

unlike jet fuel

i think imprecis gave a good point, the 2k vicious cycle. be 2k -> play with 2k -> learn from 2k -> be 2k
however i have a thing to say:
There is a friend of mine, A., who is 4.4k mmr and played dota since dota 1. He is really good imo, and he is teaching dota to his friends. Now they had a good teacher, but they are absolutely terrible at the game. (1500 games, 2k mmr) Awful mechanics, awareness, reaction times and game sense. On the other hand their decision making and item builds are okay. They just theorically know how to play the game.
So I think you can't learn dota fully by teaching, you need to practice your mechanics.

I played in 2k, and i think the best way to get good in dota is:
- play ONLY solo ranked
- watch games a lot and read forums
- practice mechanics.
- have a good mindset, don't blame teammates

all these people I mentioned don't do anything of these things above. The 3.2k mmr guy I know just blame teammates, the others just stack a lot in unraked with others 2k (ok, can be fun and you play with friends, but if you're serious this is not the way), they all don't follow competitive and have no clue on the game.

Funny thing is that the guy who taught me Dota is currently 2.2k MMR (4k games). Even more funny is that he can't accept that his play style is wrong. He ALWAYS blames others. Here u have example (he was WD, his brother played undying) :
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1428521953

They got ganked by maxed march Tinker & died as offline WD+Undying vs solo centaur. I didn't know it's even possible to die vs max marched Tinker. They both sucked super hard. I was 3-0 in 10th minute & they blamed me that I didn't call "missing", which resulted from them dcing from Skype, blaming in all chat & nearly report. In the end I won that game nearly single handly. My friend after it said - "maybe u carried us, maybe u won that game solo, but u suck etc." He couldn't accept the reality that it was his own mistake that he can't look at the map at all & that he lost lane as WD+Undying vs solo centaur.

When I tried to help him improve he always reminds me of some random stupid mistakes I made 7 months ago & suddenly he changes the topic. He just doesn't want to accept the fact that he sucks & his real life friend is better than him (having nearly twice as much MMR as him) playing the game 1 year shorter.

TL;DR - accepting that u suck is the first step to improve. Some people like my friend can't accept that they suck & it results that they're stuck in lower bracket & don't improve at all.

Cuz people don't have time making 10 smurf accounts like you every month when you hit below 4k mmr.

Yeah, i know many people like this, they think they are good and blame teammates, it's just stupid

@Hmongolian Nice normal skill bro, btw i think you're pretty clueless about how calibration and matchmaking works

Look I have 2 things to say to this:

1)
As DOTA gets bigger, the MMR gaps widen, For instance at level 13 you used to be 2k mmr, now you are probably 500 mmr

2)

I originally calibrated as a support around level 13-14 (I later found out that calibrating support hurts you too).
I calibrated at 600. I then played a few ranked games to try improve but those games are pretty much lottery. Pre 1k, often you get people feeding because someone took their hero or whatever, other times people don't know what "dust" does, and riki destroys. Literally I have been asked a few times what dust is.

I then played A LOT of pub games and even completed my all hero challenge, and got a lot better at the game.
I went back to rank, and didn't rise fast. A lot of the games I felt like I had the perfect game but my team just sucked, made bad decisions etc. I had about a 51 % win rate and over 200 ranked games I finally got to 1k, Since I have reached 1k I have had over 65 % win rate, because people know what they are doing and it's is easier to play at that mmr.

Despite having 65 % win rate, I'm still at an mmr of 1300. Fact is, I think I am below the mmr I should be BUT I am not the only one who is, and I don't think it's possible to win 100 % of games. So to gain mmr is really a slow process, and I don't think you can judge someone at 1.5k games who calibrated low and has played many pub games.

Especially since you are judging from a smurf account.

If I calibrated now I wouldn't have a high mmr, but I would have a lot higher then 1.3k
At least when I get to landmarks (3k/4k,/5k), I will know I deserve to be there

@Crudude I don't want to sound offensive but you have 130lh in 50 min with WK and 180 lh in 47 minutes with Sven. This is really 1-2k scores. And you literally have played 5 heroes on 100+. Just play others.
You can always make a smurf and recalibrate, you will get your true mmr if you think you're better.

You can't win 100% of games, but the amount of unwinnable games are lower than you think. When I lose, I always think "a better player could have won"

some people below 3k or even 3k actually press skills with the fuckng mouse.
some time ago i was spectating my 3.2k mmr friend and slark in the enemy team was clicking shadowblade, pounce and dark pact with fucking mouse and he had streaks and shit and i was dying from laughter.

@Reese

I am trying to get better at jungling in those spare times etc which I know is something I get lazy about. But you gotta remember that I also play to what is happening in the game, which sometimes means following your team around for 10 minutes just because you don't want them to die. In neither game was I the main carry either.
Early game last hits I can sometimes be really good (and sometimes fail at)

I do agree with you though, there is people that I have played with, who get 60 kills in a game, and I check their dotabuff, and they are winning every game like that. In that case it was a guy boosting his friends mmr but it shows that I am a 1/10th of a skill of that guy.

So I don't claim to be a high mmr, and I am trying to get better at the game. Every loss I try analyse what I did wrong etc. BUT I do think it is hard to raise your mmr if you're only about 1.5 k higher. Especially when there is other people you are playing against that are also in a lower mmr then what they should be.

I personally think my mmr should be about 2k

I mean someone has to be 2k otherwise they're be no 3ks and no 1ks right? It's sort of a zero sum equation where mmr is concerned. Isn't starting normal mmr like 2300?

But as far as never improving, it's just not in some people's capabilities. I know a guy who has been playing around 4 years and has 1500 games. He is 2300. We tell him how to improve and he even listens he just literally cannot comprehend it. His brain doesn't work in a way to allow him to make good dota decisions. He is not dumb. He's a sales manager at a fortune 500 company. He makes a lot of money and is a social and well liked guy, he just cannot think in whatever manner is required for dota2 sucess.

Like if he is playing a carry he still has no idea how ot farm. His focus will be on last hitting in lane, which he doesn't do that well. But his focus will be that and that's it. You can ping that mid is missing and ganking his lane, you can type it, say it over mic, he won't get back in time EVER. He's stuck on trying to get another last hit. Or if nothing's really going on, lanes are pushed, no team fights breaking out he doesn't know what to do. He'll sit in the middle of a lane doing nothing when he could easily kill a jungle camp. And I'll tell him go jungle. He might do it, but then it's even worse cus a fight will break out right next to him he should join and he won't. Or if he's part of a gank on a tower, he will dive the team all the way to their t2. There can be the entire enemy team portaling in and he will be like uh I didn't see them. Literally zero awareness.

It seems completely foreign to someone even 1k mmr higher but that's how many 2k players are. They aren't dumb, they just are not gamers. And who really cares, if they have fun it doesn't matter. The only time he gets really frustrated is when he groups with us and is the lowest on a 3k average team cus then it shows and he feeds and does terribly. Otherwise he wins about half his games, it's really quite amazing how mmr works.

I'm sure that 4500 and 5500 players look at me in a similar light. I'll do dumb shit I'm sure they would never do, even if someone tells me not to.

I calibrated at 2.1k 8 months ago and have since climbed to 3.2k so it's possible to climb out of that shot I knowost people will say 3k trash but 3.2k is wayyy different than 2.1k. I think I can keep rising. I got to 3050 mmr in my first 4 months playing then dropped to 2.6k by my 6 month mark and have since climbed back to 3.2k. I can honestly say that I am a lot better than I was 4 months ago before falling to 2.6k I thonk I needed to experience that to realize I needed to revamp my play style. Any ways the only way to rise seems to be that you have to play like 400-500 above your mmr consistently other wise you will go up and down and not rise much of at all due to there being so many factors in Dota such as 9 other players not to mention your sleep level and what not that day.

Timberwolf has it exactly right. He knows what is really going on with the typical average dota player because he knows his friend, knows who he is in real life. His friend is actually above average intelligence, talented in many other areas... but average in his ability to move his fingers quickly and accurately and average in his ability to perceive tiny details flashing by quickly, precise distances, split second timing, and so forth... the essential skills needed to excel at dota 2.

Most people can't lasthit. They really cannot do it. It is primarily because they cannot perceive any difference between what they did when they got one and what they did when they missed. If they focus enough attention on lasthitting to get a few, they have nothing left at all for watching the map or even thinking. Its just too hard for them to do because of their physical lack of ability.

Typically if you are someone who has the skills to play dota even moderately well, you will be shocked to realize how bad most people are at playing it. But don't despair. The millions of 2k and below players are quite happy and still win about half their games against other ordinary players. They are not frustrated by their lack of skill in a PC game. It's not important to them.

Nearly all of them truly love to play dota 2, and will keep playing whenever they can for many years. They are completely unaware of almost all their mistakes because they can't see what is happening in real time in the game anyway. But its very pretty, and there is exciting music and wonderful characters to entertain everyone.

And it's not limited to dota. I can show certain people how to do algebraic equations over and over and they still just don't get how it works.

Or like baseball. How come some of the best hitters just look like big fat unathletic guys? Cus it's all about hand eye coordination and bat speed. It's a very specialized skill set.

I know a 1k mmr with over 3000 games, who started play dota 2 like 3 years ago

Another thing to add is that when someone is winning half their games, they don't realise there is a need to improve.
So when you are playing with people who at the same skill level and making the same mistakes as you, and you are winning.. it is hard to say "hey I am doing this wrong I should improve it." So I think the people you play with knock you down too.

For instance in pub games I used to stack and ward creep camps and stuff as a support, but since I've played ranked at pre 1k mmr I have got out of the habit because it usually ends up pretty pointless.

I really don't think last hitting is an impossible to learn skill for anyone, it is basically all to do with timing
I think the hard part that many struggle with in DOTA 2 is situational awareness (if that is the right word)

I think a good way to get better is to find something you need to improve on and focus it for awile then once it's second nature you can add it to your tool kit without it interfering with other things. For instance I looked at my games and realized that I relied on snowballing/ hero fights to much for my gold and didn't farm enough so for like 4 weeks straight I focused on farming . My win rate did not go up however my gpm went up a lot this is due to me having to spend less time helping team and the fact it was a lot different from before when I would try to be in every team fight. However once farming more became second nature such as patterns when to and whatnot my win rate skyrocketed since now I could pay attention to everything like before but also had atleast 100 gpm more per game to augment me. I am 16-2 recently in ranked so hopefully I can keep it up. I prolly need to find another aspect of my game play to focus on to improve soon so I won't cap out.

Simply put, if you casually play Dota, then your MMR will basically stay the same, even if it's a measly 2k mmr.

Reason being, as players play Dota, they will get better. So it's about maintaining. If you are a 6k player now, then stop playing for 6 months and return, even if you retained the same skills and knowledge, you'd probably be a 5k player then.

TL;DR: If you don't learn faster than your MMR your MMR won't increase. This could mean that a potentially skilled player (capable of 5k) only plays dota once a month, and as such learn as much in his 1 game as a 2k player learns in 30, but yet, he still remains at 2k mmr.

If that player played every day he would be 5k. Also, like others say, you also need to actually WANT to learn. If you just play mindlessly then you aren't going to improve.