General DiscussionDrow support

nope not viable at all

just retard

Vengeful Spirit is viable support, but Drow is not? This is just stupid... Both of them can be played as a carry or as a support.

Vengeful is a viable support because:
1. low CD stun
2. Wave reduces armor and gives sight for long range
3. Aura gives damage to everyone (not just range)
4. Swap is not a offense skill but utility that is useful for team.

From above, all four skills are useful WITHOUT anything items needed, and useful for the team and not just yourself.

Now you compare that to Drow:
Only Silence (with a bad cd) and Aura is useful if you were support. Might as well play another hero if you're not going to farm her to make use of her high damage and ice arrows.

Drow is a viable support because:
1. best slow in game (without cooldown)
2. 6 seconds AOE silence (with 13 sec cooldown, which is low)
3. Aura gives damage only to ranged units, but is GLOBAL
4. Deals very good damage with rightclicks (even without any items)

My team was full ranged, thats why i picked drow

No, nlt very good damage without items, good slow but shit damage, trust me.

Even a support can farm enough to buy Ethereal Blade for Drow. It changes damage dramatically. And with two Ethereal Blades Drow becomes a carry.

A drow cannot be a ward bitch with brown boots ten minutes into the game. It just does not work. She is easy enough prey when she's been farming that long, without any stats she goes down like a wee insect to any initiation tool. In other words you become feed incarnate

Drow might become support in some situations as she mega counters jugg

@Kryptnyt
Unless Abaddon, any support "goes down like a wee insect to any initiation tool".

This shouldn't be a topic. Please tell me what drow can do with minimal farm and levels. She has horrible ms and an even worse auto. her range isn't even decent.

Her skills could be seen as "supportive", but a 15% slow isn't going to make or break a gank, silences are very unreliable to be helpful unless there are teamfights, and the aura is the best thing.

Do you really want a slow moving, squishy hero is only good for a push/silence, aura, and a single target slow in the middle of a team fight?

I think she can work as an utility items farmer with the right lineup, but she's definitely not a hero who can sustain herself and her team by only buying wards and consumables, hoping she'll get enough assist gold for a single lategame item.

@JRS | frostychee
What? Drow has 300 movement speed, which is ok. Her 625 attack range is one of the highest.

Take Venomancer for example:
- 285 movement speed;
- 450 attack range;
- no stuns, no silence, only slow which is no easier to hit than Drow's Gush.

Yet Drow is less viable? Really?...

^ What dude? Your argument here is ridiculous.

Veno has free wards which provide vision and a way to apply his slow + DoT passive from a safe distance.
He also has a relatively big cooldown, easy to place ultimate which makes sure that he has a big impact in teamfights even if he dies very early, provided that he managed to cast all his spells (it helps that they are only 2), while Drow has to remain alive if she participates in a teamfight and mind her position very carefully in order to be relevant.

On the other hand, Drow needs some items even if she goes for a more utility/supportive build rather than a pure DPS one.

^[Lk].Zano
Yes, it looks good on paper, but in reality: Plague Wards are just a food for enemy heroes, all his skills deal damage over time and his ultimate can't kill...

On the other hand, well placed AOE silence for 6 seconds can change everything.

P.S. About items... I think Drow will be fine with Tranquill Boots, Magic Wand and Ghost (transformed into EBlade later).

This discussion is so weird.

Okay I was wrong about the ms and attack range, but my point still stands. Have you ever tried this or are you just theory crafting? You're saying that all of these skills are super helpful to support, but when do your skills actually do something? The slow isn't a slow until it's level 3. You going to wait to level 5 to slow one person? Is your silence going to be a consistent part of the ganks success? By the time Drow is level 8 or 10 when she has all of her wonderful skills to work with, the other team's heroes aren't going to give a fuck really.

The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels. Frankly, Drow can't do it.

Everything you posted I disagree with:
"^[Lk].Zano
Yes, it looks good on paper, but in reality: Plague Wards are just a food for enemy heroes, all his skills deal damage over time and his ultimate can't kill...

I don't know about you, but I don't spam wards until level 3....that early in the game and it's anything but food for the enemy teams. Even carries wont have enough dps to deal with them in a timely fashion.

You say Veno is a poor support? His slow level 1 is so strong for ganks. It's aoe and lasts forever for teammates to help out. Drow level 1 slow is 15% and needs her auto attacking for a minute slow.

On the other hand, well placed AOE silence for 6 seconds can change everything.

A well placed 6 second aoe silence. So many things wrong with this. You need to be level 7 at least for this to happen so it won't be until maybe 10-14 minutes into the game? Also WELL PLACED is going to be extremely difficult. You won't have a blink, so you either have to be set up by your team or hope your enemy will let you walk into position and slow them all.

P.S. About items... I think Drow will be fine with Tranquill Boots, Magic Wand and Ghost (transformed into EBlade later).

Ok so you have a kinda fast 700 hp hero who has to be in the middle of things to use a silence or put herself at risk to slow a single target"

Just try this so called support drow build and let me know how it goes.

^
I won with this exact build.

Real questionn is should you transition into a support if you monster fail mid? I did it with stalker once after I failed a few ganks

drow is utility hero not a carry

@JRS | frostychee
I ended up being reported for playing support Zeus, so I can't even imagine what my teammates will do to me if I try support Drow. It's hard to break meta... =)

P.S. I also play support Pudge and Bloodseeker sometimes, even if it's proven to be a good thing, team still rage on me.

pretty sure that now that hook has 1000 range @lvl 1 more people will flame you for playing him mid rather than support/offlane.

it has nothing to do with breaking meta. I play skywrath mid all time and my team flames "why u no support me?????" then I go 10-0 by 10mins and they shut the fuck up.

Supporting /= feeding and buying wards

Supporting /= taking mid.

you missed the point(which you usually do) skywrath mid is not in the "meta" but people dont really care if you actually do good. Failing at your role then trying to fall back on the excuse of "Im a support" is just what retards try and pull

I hate when people use support role as an excuse to feeding and I can't remember when I used this excuse myself. You probably take words of somebody else by mistake and think that I'm the author.

BTW, mid Skywrath is not so far from meta as one may think.

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/1160818761

this is your support pudge

That game was a stomp, because Invoker lost mid hard vs QoP. He could have even more deaths if I didn't saved him with my hooks.

If you winning mid, but your team feeds, you still has a chance to win. But if you play support and your teams feeds, you end up feeding with them... Anyway, I don't say that having as many deaths as I had in that game is OK. Shit just happens sometimes, you know...

but srsly dood how'd you manage to be so underlevelled and have only 8 lasthits in a 48 minute game even as pudge

when you are a retard, you can play any position with any hero!
or if you are very good!

Getting carried in a game because you got rekt in your chosen role is not the best example of making your hero work as a support.

How support Pudge can get a lasthit?
Steal farm from carry during laning stage? Bad idea...
Jungling? Don't think so...
You only get lasthits when you miss hook and hit enemy creep or some accidental rot kills.

BTW, 8 lasthits in 48 minutes is my average.

I won 4 games as a support Pudge, but lost in fifth. And because of that one loss I must decide that support Pudge is bad...
I don't understand this logic.

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/146582953/matches?date=&faction=&hero=pudge&lobby_type=&game_mode=&region=&duration=

I don't know about Pudge. I don't mind the hero as long as he's played intelligently, no matter what role he chooses.

Here I was talking about X6 getting carried in that Drow game because he lost mid and assuming from it that the hero can consistently work as a support.

I think there are only ~10 heroes that can't be useful as a supports in any circumstances. Others are just situational.

8 last hits in 50mins is pathetic even in a complete stomp where the other team is camping your fountain for 40mins

Ok, Sampson, lets sum up what we figured out about supports so far:
- supporting /= feeding and buying wards
- supporting /= taking mid
let's add one more
- supporting /= farming

Right? =)

generally people are bad at lasthitting so they will leave at least 2 which you can get because they won't
you can also get farm by stacking and pulling unless they ward the camp, whichi they did not in your game
but you started with sobi mask instead of hp regen when pudge does not even need it in the beginning and you did not pull and so you finally got brown boots at 12 minute in the game
that's a pretty sad thing for any support i'd say, only happens to me if i die like 4 times early, and that only happened to me a long time ago when i played crystal maiden once
i suggest you either not buy so many wards or flying courier before you get boots

IMO, Soul Ring is more important than boots. Not for every hero, but for heroes like Pudge or Omniknight it's 100% true. So, I try to get it ASAP.

And now I have to say that... Wards are more important than anything. Sometimes I disobey this rule and play a bit greedy, but most of the time I follow it and my MMR goes up as a result.

You guys are getting too caught up in definitions of abilities but what defines "support" vs "carry" is simply who gets farm priority. Supports do not get to last hit in lanes, carries do. Supports make space so carries can farm. That's it. Other stuff doesn't matter cus some carries have as much or more utility than supports.

So the question becomes can Drow be effective with little to no farm? And I think the answer is no outside of a rat drow (her ult does so much dmg to buildings that rat drow with just one or two items works). For one thing she's so squishy without items and while other supports are too they are usually balanced by other stuff. Like veno doesn't have to be present to make impact. He launchs gale and ult and dies, so what? As long as he got ult off he is contributing a ton to a fight. CM is squishy but has disables to protect her early. Shadow shaman and lion are squishy too but have early high impact spells. Drow just has silence. Might as well go silencer cus his is easier to get off and then he does more. Drow has to be alive to keep slowing people with arrows as the duration is low.

Then the other thing is her aura is based off her agi so it grows in strength with items.

Heroes who make good supports are like silencer. He can be a carry sure but his spells have so much utility even without. Pudge is great cus he needs like zero items. Invoker is fine cus hey invoker, a billion spells for any situation.

Drow? Not so much. I would transition her to a rat if I failed early and just try to sneak attack towers.

The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels.
The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels.
The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels.
The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels.
The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels.
The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels.
The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels.
The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels.

pls dispute this point, i still don't know what Drow can do without items and fighting/ganking being gimped levels.

@JRS | frostychee
"The main thing a support needs to do is make a strong impact early in the game with minimal farm and levels."

That worked before patch 6.82, but now it's completely different:
The main thing a support needs to do is to remain useful during all stages of the game with minimal farm and levels.

Yeah I do not agree with the strong impact early game part, supports like omni and if you run a necro support just get stronger as the game goes on. The main thing is being impactful without farm. Drow is much less impactful without farm so you should just pick something else.

Cm+drow roaming = new meta

Support with drow only if you don't have any better option (ar / sd or other stupid picks scenario). She is decent support only in laning stage.

After laning, you have 2 options:
1) Participate team fights without items and get nuked instantly
2) Afk farm and hope your team wont lose the game until you get some items

Guys guys you gotta try support Spectre, you can have four carries farming and be ready to protect any of them with ulti + slow, it's amazing guys, only items you need are armlet + Halberd + mana boots + atos and your support life is easy