^^ I buy wards on cooldown and place them. Just dont buy fucking sentries if you dont have items!!!!!
Like its really nice that you actually can watch that clincz killing you with your 3 sets of sentries placed all over the map, but you will still die and he will still run away, but maybe with a bracer and only one emergency-dust in your inventory, you can survive on low hp and dust him so your team can chase...
edit: and i officially diagnose myself with relentless-syndrome...
-Where have you seen carries buying wards for Crystal Maiden? What region you play in? Or should I ask - what planet? =)
I buy them, lots of people will if they have gold. You are not buying them for Crystal Maiden, you are buying them for the team. What exactly do they offer CM? Nothing, she is just the one to place them most of the time as she does not need to farm so can roam. 200G for some wards is better than having a Rapier and no vision.
If you buy wards as a carry - you are bad player. Your teammates rely on you, they try to make ideal place for you where you can farm as fast as possible in safety. Because you need that expensive dps item. Please don't waste precious gold on wards.
Supports rely on their spell to deal damage, so they don't need dps items. This is why they called "supports" in first place.
Watch first 5 minutes of this game: http://dotabuff.com/matches/518678005 I placed sentry wards in the middle of Broodmother's webs and this guy just quits. Easy GG.
^No, start thinking out of that box, that box is bad...
If that ward hes a purpose, like leads to a kill or helps you avoid a gank, or simply just LETS YOU FARM SAFELY, it worth it. Lets say you are a carry, buy a set of wards, place somewhere to be safe while farming, get 2 waves of creeps (or even just one) that otherwise you wouldnt dare, it already worth it, not even a kill included... Or your solo support is thinking about buying that brown boots finally, has literally nothing, easy food for anything (with boots, would probably avoid at least one death, so you save 300 gold going to an enemy hero by spending 150 yourself), and also that ward is needed couse enemy ursa/lycan whatever is soon ready to rosh, so you either need vison around the pit or wherever else he can be, so you know when to attack and get a free kill on him. And you think it doesnt worht it just couse he plays a carry?
Ofc if a support CAN afford, he should by the wards, but sometimes getting boots or later on buying that ghost scepter can make you survive and feed less plus actually be useful.
It all depends on the situation. If your carry just finished a big item, has 150 gold on him and you are close to your ghost scepter, is it really better if you buy that right-now needed ward, die in the next fight with 1543 gold on you and lose 300 gold, this maybe even leading to a close but lost teamfight that would have been turned by your ulti/spells/forcestaff anything?
I think it's ok to lose any amounts of gold as a support. Carry needs every coin.
Btw, when I played as a babysitter Venomancer with Sniper on mid, I was thinking about bottle for me. Think about it, I can freely control runes, while Sniper lasthitting. And then I can use bottle on him. What do you think? Will it be new meta some day?
^unnecessarily losing gold as a support is what causes them to lose effectiveness in the lategame (which is what you originally created this topic for)
carries usually buy their own sentries when going against invis heroes, thats not playing as a bad carry, thats maximising how you spend your gold, by shutting down the opposing player and benefiting your own farm in the process.
as mentioned before somewhere else in this thread, if you let a support buy all of the items and just die because they're so weak, not only is that player losing gold, but your opposing team's carry (or whoever gets the kill) is gaining gold as well, sometimes as a carry you just have to suck it up, spend 150 gold (which is only about 3-4 last hit's worth anyway) and buy something which will benefit your performance as a whole
^^ You have to realise its pub dota and you arent a pro player. They can play without items, you cant. Also, pros use two supports, if you solo support, buying detection is NOT your job, meka is NOT your job. If there are 2 supports, you split everything somehow. If you solo, you buy chicken, crow, observers, maybe even pick up 1-2 smoke, thats all. you build bracer/urn, drums or something, medallion, whatever needed, then go for something thats gonna save your life and by that making you worth something. It can be force staff or ghost scepter, sometimes even euls. Rly nice job saving that 150 gold for your carry with buying wards but feeding 1200 gold on enemy carry...
I did think what you think now, probably couse i came from wow too, probably read/watched same guides, couse i believed the same thing you wrote ... but its not how dota works.
It doesnt matter if a support dies late-game in a team-fight aftr using all spells/items, or if a support dies for a purpose, saving carry or trading life for a higher prio enemy, or a tower/rax, totally worth it. But if you die couse you dont have items couse constantly counterwarded roshan for 25 mins without anyone even thinking about killing him or goint close to the pit, its not worth it...
They know everything about the game, every little shits range, they can stay out of harms was if needed, know all juking patsh, and are FAST. Think fast and click fast, they know exactly how much damage enemy can do, how much health they have, count enemy cc/nuke cooldowns (or just feel it after a time). Also, know their opponents, the players not just the heroes. Thats why they can sometimes win impossiblle games with a random strategy, enemy expects something, and something else happens. But usually they have an idea about what enemy is thinking. Need years of experience, talent and practice practice practice. You cant just learn it. You have to move up on that ladder step by step, so just do what everyone says first...
Ok, then how can I find carry players like you guys, who buy detection? When I play against invis heroes, my teammates just spam "we need wards" and do nothing themselves.
Basic wards are a given for a support. Detection everyone should be buying because unless you are walking around as a 5 all the time an invis could be anywhere. Dust is the best detection and the carry should carry it too because that 200G dust is what might net him an easy kill.
buy wards, let someone else carry them? Dump the magic wand slot and get shivas/force staff/blink? You seriously keep a ~200 heal til end game? 200 hp is like .5 seconds of dps from a late game carry.
Wards, Force Staff, Scepter, etc. You don't need to be alive in teamfigghts to contribute. Warding and forcestaffing people away from enemies is plenty. Usually BKB times are a lot lower in late game so stuns are always useful no matter the time
^^ I buy wards on cooldown and place them. Just dont buy fucking sentries if you dont have items!!!!!
Like its really nice that you actually can watch that clincz killing you with your 3 sets of sentries placed all over the map, but you will still die and he will still run away, but maybe with a bracer and only one emergency-dust in your inventory, you can survive on low hp and dust him so your team can chase...
edit: and i officially diagnose myself with relentless-syndrome...
I like when some ppl buy at start obs,sentrys,smoke,currier.. and than make 0-15
-Where have you seen carries buying wards for Crystal Maiden? What region you play in? Or should I ask - what planet? =)
I buy them, lots of people will if they have gold. You are not buying them for Crystal Maiden, you are buying them for the team. What exactly do they offer CM? Nothing, she is just the one to place them most of the time as she does not need to farm so can roam. 200G for some wards is better than having a Rapier and no vision.
If you buy wards as a carry - you are bad player. Your teammates rely on you, they try to make ideal place for you where you can farm as fast as possible in safety. Because you need that expensive dps item. Please don't waste precious gold on wards.
Supports rely on their spell to deal damage, so they don't need dps items. This is why they called "supports" in first place.
Watch first 5 minutes of this game: http://dotabuff.com/matches/518678005
I placed sentry wards in the middle of Broodmother's webs and this guy just quits. Easy GG.
^No, start thinking out of that box, that box is bad...
If that ward hes a purpose, like leads to a kill or helps you avoid a gank, or simply just LETS YOU FARM SAFELY, it worth it. Lets say you are a carry, buy a set of wards, place somewhere to be safe while farming, get 2 waves of creeps (or even just one) that otherwise you wouldnt dare, it already worth it, not even a kill included... Or your solo support is thinking about buying that brown boots finally, has literally nothing, easy food for anything (with boots, would probably avoid at least one death, so you save 300 gold going to an enemy hero by spending 150 yourself), and also that ward is needed couse enemy ursa/lycan whatever is soon ready to rosh, so you either need vison around the pit or wherever else he can be, so you know when to attack and get a free kill on him. And you think it doesnt worht it just couse he plays a carry?
Ofc if a support CAN afford, he should by the wards, but sometimes getting boots or later on buying that ghost scepter can make you survive and feed less plus actually be useful.
It all depends on the situation. If your carry just finished a big item, has 150 gold on him and you are close to your ghost scepter, is it really better if you buy that right-now needed ward, die in the next fight with 1543 gold on you and lose 300 gold, this maybe even leading to a close but lost teamfight that would have been turned by your ulti/spells/forcestaff anything?
I think it's ok to lose any amounts of gold as a support. Carry needs every coin.
Btw, when I played as a babysitter Venomancer with Sniper on mid, I was thinking about bottle for me. Think about it, I can freely control runes, while Sniper lasthitting. And then I can use bottle on him. What do you think? Will it be new meta some day?
^unnecessarily losing gold as a support is what causes them to lose effectiveness in the lategame (which is what you originally created this topic for)
carries usually buy their own sentries when going against invis heroes, thats not playing as a bad carry, thats maximising how you spend your gold, by shutting down the opposing player and benefiting your own farm in the process.
as mentioned before somewhere else in this thread, if you let a support buy all of the items and just die because they're so weak, not only is that player losing gold, but your opposing team's carry (or whoever gets the kill) is gaining gold as well, sometimes as a carry you just have to suck it up, spend 150 gold (which is only about 3-4 last hit's worth anyway) and buy something which will benefit your performance as a whole
^^ You have to realise its pub dota and you arent a pro player. They can play without items, you cant. Also, pros use two supports, if you solo support, buying detection is NOT your job, meka is NOT your job. If there are 2 supports, you split everything somehow. If you solo, you buy chicken, crow, observers, maybe even pick up 1-2 smoke, thats all. you build bracer/urn, drums or something, medallion, whatever needed, then go for something thats gonna save your life and by that making you worth something. It can be force staff or ghost scepter, sometimes even euls. Rly nice job saving that 150 gold for your carry with buying wards but feeding 1200 gold on enemy carry...
I did think what you think now, probably couse i came from wow too, probably read/watched same guides, couse i believed the same thing you wrote ... but its not how dota works.
It doesnt matter if a support dies late-game in a team-fight aftr using all spells/items, or if a support dies for a purpose, saving carry or trading life for a higher prio enemy, or a tower/rax, totally worth it. But if you die couse you dont have items couse constantly counterwarded roshan for 25 mins without anyone even thinking about killing him or goint close to the pit, its not worth it...
"...you arent a pro player. They can play without items, you cant."
This is exactly what I want to know: how they play without items.
They know everything about the game, every little shits range, they can stay out of harms was if needed, know all juking patsh, and are FAST. Think fast and click fast, they know exactly how much damage enemy can do, how much health they have, count enemy cc/nuke cooldowns (or just feel it after a time). Also, know their opponents, the players not just the heroes. Thats why they can sometimes win impossiblle games with a random strategy, enemy expects something, and something else happens. But usually they have an idea about what enemy is thinking. Need years of experience, talent and practice practice practice. You cant just learn it. You have to move up on that ladder step by step, so just do what everyone says first...
Ok, then how can I find carry players like you guys, who buy detection? When I play against invis heroes, my teammates just spam "we need wards" and do nothing themselves.
Basic wards are a given for a support. Detection everyone should be buying because unless you are walking around as a 5 all the time an invis could be anywhere. Dust is the best detection and the carry should carry it too because that 200G dust is what might net him an easy kill.
buy wards, let someone else carry them? Dump the magic wand slot and get shivas/force staff/blink? You seriously keep a ~200 heal til end game? 200 hp is like .5 seconds of dps from a late game carry.
Wards, Force Staff, Scepter, etc. You don't need to be alive in teamfigghts to contribute. Warding and forcestaffing people away from enemies is plenty. Usually BKB times are a lot lower in late game so stuns are always useful no matter the time
I did it! I farmed so many items in my last game!
http://dotabuff.com/matches/532037603
Look at it: boots, mek, drums and even ghost scepter!
Are you proud of me? =)))