But there are some grossly overrated players that are being carried to their mmr, and i bet the system knows it. It has a reserve pool of grossly overrated players to place in a "FreeLose/FreeWin" game favouring a certain team.
And how do you propose a system could even possibly attempt to do something so convoluted? It would well be easier for them to give a "perfect version" of matchmaking with the information needed to do what you claim it does.
For the system to know who are the grossly overrated players, it has to take into account their picks, their contribution to the team, the level of impact they have, and determine that they are somehow winning games by chance alone despite the fact that their contribution were minimal. If the system was even remotely capable of such a feat it would be used to vastly improve matchmaking. How the hell do you even find out who is grossly overrated from looking at the stats alone? Hell, if matchmaking could do that, I'm bloody sure they would simply give them lesser rating for such a win, and there wouldn't be the notions of "forced losses" in the first place.
It's like looking at the dotabuff summary for a match and trying to figure out who contributed the most. You can't. Supports will always have stats skewed against them, and GPM/XPM/Last hits/Denies/Hero Damage/Healing/Tower Damage has no relation to how clutch a Bane landed his ulti against the opponent's farmed carry from the fog after breaking his Linken's with Sap before initiating a deathpush. You can never see these from the stats alone. The system can only know so much.
@ zenoth fyi I really don't care about others. I only want to know this: why after a win streak I get impossible teammates? simple as that. I have noticed this pattern: I get like 4 games with ppl that communicate, gank, coordinate etc. After those I get impossible teammates. I'm not saying that I'm flawless but I can see that they are below me regarding skill level(for example tranquill boots on pudge or never toggling armlet on CK)
most of these are begginer mistakes that I also made when I was still learning the game and the mechanics
The system doesnt purposely do it, but unknowingly a huge cesspool of grossly overrated players are produced due to the side effects of the matchmaking, including those pros who purposely create new accounts to play in, will cause 4 other newbies to be carried to a level that is far surpasses their skill.
@Raspharus
Luck of the draw. Such players could end up on either your team or the enemy team. If they are really as trash as you make them out to be, their rating will eventually drop out of your matchmaking range.
You don't even have particularly long streaks. Most of your streaks are 3-4 games long on average, very similar to the results from a coin flip. Matchmaking isn't particularly trying to screw you after you win, it's just that at your level getting cooperative or uncooperative teammates is very chance based, and because you have this preconception that matchmaking is trying to force you to 50% after a win streak you will keep noticing those games in particular where you lose after a winning streak or lose after a winning streak. The thing is that streaks are inevitable, and all streaks will come to an end at some point. Matchmaking doesn't need to even try. I'm sure not every game you lost after a winning streak was necessarily the result of some uncooperative four stack, definitely some are close games but you won't remember them as clearly.
Pros who purposely create new accounts to play in, or for example the case of Swiftending on his smurf, will quickly rise beyond their original rating. Yes, their teammates will get a free win. But don't forget that even if there were alot of such pros, a random player would have a 5/9 chance of being on the losing team and a 4/9 chance of being on the winning team. In other words just by statistics alone only an extremely lucky player will keep getting carried. It is extremely unlikely, and once he doesn't get a pro underrated player on his team he will be a burden to his relatively better teammates and drag his team down.
I have plenty of friends who range from 3k to 5k, and I have never heard such complaints above 4k. Skill build, awareness, and many other such matters are points of disagreement, but never to the extent where a player is evidently new to the game. I have friends in the low 3k range and they will occasionally make this complaint. They are used to playing with higher rated friends, and thus can see the mistakes of their similarly-ranked peers very easily, but are unable to execute at a higher level themselves, often leading to plenty of frustration.
tl;dr a new player doesn't just get to 4k, you need a combination of knowledge, mechanics and execution to get there in the first place.
Focus on improving yourself. It's fine to care about winning, that's the whole objective of this game anyway. As you get better you will win more games. It's as simple as that. There will be bad games. Bad games permeate all levels of matchmaking. Even in TI3 many games were lopsided and arguably terribly bad stomps. But stay positive throughout, and eventually you will start to see better teammates.
what you heard and what is actually true are two different things. I head that the Holocaust never happened but that does not make it true. This is the main reason why valve was so hesitant to show MM and if you look back months before MM even was released I stated that people will start making constant posts about not seeing any 'growth' in regards to their MM after they plateau. The fact that you are seeing a 'forced 50%' is a indication that you have plateaued.
if you want to improve you need to practice more AND be able to look at yourself subjectively AND take criticism. It is like watching the NBA and expecting to go professional. Those professionals have put in ALOT of time in to improve.
Just to clarify, I don't believe people are stuck in their MMRs. They can definitely rise above it. But there is a more not-so-subtle factor in Swiftending's smurf games if people pay attention - he almost always goes mid (in all the games he lost, he didn't play mid) and makes a huge impact. Basically, if you want to win and not end up looking like the retards in your team at whichever MMR bracket you're in, you have to create a gold/exp gap. Going mid is arguably the best way to achieve this.
1) Going to a lane solo gives you more exp (usually...unless it's one of those occasional qop's feeding to a pudge or something like that)
2) Having rune control lets you gank more easily
This kinda screws over people who play support (even if they support properly), since their MMRs will rise slowly, maybe not at all. Swiftending's own quote says it all:
"I've had countless games with my allies failing every lane extremely badly, however it's still easy to recover from that and feed on enemies more. I can see why people who wouldn't be able to do that think the MM is handicapping them, however if you can't exploit your enemies more than they exploit your allies then you're pretty much where you need to be."
Translation: You literally are going to get braindead players; you just have to try your best and win. If you're on support and you get braindead players...well good luck. Don't support next time, I guess?
Another quote from kzz:
"if you feel that you are a better player than your rating suggests (and a whole fuckton of people feel this way) then i would suggest looking at how you play and trying to change it. how you think about the game is probably off. something that i constantly see in mm are people who are afraid to die. dying is part of the game. u can't win without dying unless it's a stomp. quite often it's better to die and win a teamfight than preserve your singsing score and lose the teamfight/the game."
Anyways I'm done with this thread. The only thing I disagree with Zenoth on is that I do feel Valve can improve matchmaking significantly just by tweaking some characteristics (such as giving people the option to not have parties if you're solo queuing - some of my losses are from stacks with 1 player severely dragging down the team, i.e. "ancients sniper"). Perhaps I am expecting too much, but at the same time there are a lot of bad quality games - enough to warrant some criticism and review. Yes, you will still get lopsided games - the difference is that the lopsided games will be due to the team failing overall, not because 1-2 retards who are playing in a game clearly beyond their skill levels happened to be placed there.
also i'm giving up on cd, apparently the only reason i won most of my drafts was cuz i was drafting against 4.4k tards, once i started drafting against 5k+ players i lost pretty badly lol
if you play cd or cm and you're above 5k+, the queue will be 10+ minutes long and you will end up vs lower rated players (4k-4.5k) which means you can win easier
All Hail <3Suzy! The best player ! MUAHAHAH
But there are some grossly overrated players that are being carried to their mmr, and i bet the system knows it. It has a reserve pool of grossly overrated players to place in a "FreeLose/FreeWin" game favouring a certain team.
And how do you propose a system could even possibly attempt to do something so convoluted? It would well be easier for them to give a "perfect version" of matchmaking with the information needed to do what you claim it does.
For the system to know who are the grossly overrated players, it has to take into account their picks, their contribution to the team, the level of impact they have, and determine that they are somehow winning games by chance alone despite the fact that their contribution were minimal. If the system was even remotely capable of such a feat it would be used to vastly improve matchmaking. How the hell do you even find out who is grossly overrated from looking at the stats alone? Hell, if matchmaking could do that, I'm bloody sure they would simply give them lesser rating for such a win, and there wouldn't be the notions of "forced losses" in the first place.
It's like looking at the dotabuff summary for a match and trying to figure out who contributed the most. You can't. Supports will always have stats skewed against them, and GPM/XPM/Last hits/Denies/Hero Damage/Healing/Tower Damage has no relation to how clutch a Bane landed his ulti against the opponent's farmed carry from the fog after breaking his Linken's with Sap before initiating a deathpush. You can never see these from the stats alone. The system can only know so much.
@ zenoth fyi I really don't care about others. I only want to know this: why after a win streak I get impossible teammates? simple as that. I have noticed this pattern: I get like 4 games with ppl that communicate, gank, coordinate etc. After those I get impossible teammates. I'm not saying that I'm flawless but I can see that they are below me regarding skill level(for example tranquill boots on pudge or never toggling armlet on CK)
most of these are begginer mistakes that I also made when I was still learning the game and the mechanics
The system doesnt purposely do it, but unknowingly a huge cesspool of grossly overrated players are produced due to the side effects of the matchmaking, including those pros who purposely create new accounts to play in, will cause 4 other newbies to be carried to a level that is far surpasses their skill.
@Raspharus
Luck of the draw. Such players could end up on either your team or the enemy team. If they are really as trash as you make them out to be, their rating will eventually drop out of your matchmaking range.
You don't even have particularly long streaks. Most of your streaks are 3-4 games long on average, very similar to the results from a coin flip. Matchmaking isn't particularly trying to screw you after you win, it's just that at your level getting cooperative or uncooperative teammates is very chance based, and because you have this preconception that matchmaking is trying to force you to 50% after a win streak you will keep noticing those games in particular where you lose after a winning streak or lose after a winning streak. The thing is that streaks are inevitable, and all streaks will come to an end at some point. Matchmaking doesn't need to even try. I'm sure not every game you lost after a winning streak was necessarily the result of some uncooperative four stack, definitely some are close games but you won't remember them as clearly.
@Suzy
Pros who purposely create new accounts to play in, or for example the case of Swiftending on his smurf, will quickly rise beyond their original rating. Yes, their teammates will get a free win. But don't forget that even if there were alot of such pros, a random player would have a 5/9 chance of being on the losing team and a 4/9 chance of being on the winning team. In other words just by statistics alone only an extremely lucky player will keep getting carried. It is extremely unlikely, and once he doesn't get a pro underrated player on his team he will be a burden to his relatively better teammates and drag his team down.
what really killed my motivation was when I heard that ~4k ppl still struggle with new players.
so I guess I need to stop carying about winning, losing or mmr and just keep playing?
I have plenty of friends who range from 3k to 5k, and I have never heard such complaints above 4k. Skill build, awareness, and many other such matters are points of disagreement, but never to the extent where a player is evidently new to the game. I have friends in the low 3k range and they will occasionally make this complaint. They are used to playing with higher rated friends, and thus can see the mistakes of their similarly-ranked peers very easily, but are unable to execute at a higher level themselves, often leading to plenty of frustration.
tl;dr a new player doesn't just get to 4k, you need a combination of knowledge, mechanics and execution to get there in the first place.
Focus on improving yourself. It's fine to care about winning, that's the whole objective of this game anyway. As you get better you will win more games. It's as simple as that. There will be bad games. Bad games permeate all levels of matchmaking. Even in TI3 many games were lopsided and arguably terribly bad stomps. But stay positive throughout, and eventually you will start to see better teammates.
what you heard and what is actually true are two different things. I head that the Holocaust never happened but that does not make it true. This is the main reason why valve was so hesitant to show MM and if you look back months before MM even was released I stated that people will start making constant posts about not seeing any 'growth' in regards to their MM after they plateau. The fact that you are seeing a 'forced 50%' is a indication that you have plateaued.
so how can I stop stagnating or plateauing ?
improve
how? I see lots of begginer guides but I haven't seen any intermediate tips or guides regarding improvement
if you want to improve you need to practice more AND be able to look at yourself subjectively AND take criticism. It is like watching the NBA and expecting to go professional. Those professionals have put in ALOT of time in to improve.
oh dota buff yoou so funny xDDDD i luv u and all the ppl raging at losing games makes it funnier.
ye 50% forced, MM sucks.
I'm with you bros.
Just to clarify, I don't believe people are stuck in their MMRs. They can definitely rise above it. But there is a more not-so-subtle factor in Swiftending's smurf games if people pay attention - he almost always goes mid (in all the games he lost, he didn't play mid) and makes a huge impact. Basically, if you want to win and not end up looking like the retards in your team at whichever MMR bracket you're in, you have to create a gold/exp gap. Going mid is arguably the best way to achieve this.
1) Going to a lane solo gives you more exp (usually...unless it's one of those occasional qop's feeding to a pudge or something like that)
2) Having rune control lets you gank more easily
This kinda screws over people who play support (even if they support properly), since their MMRs will rise slowly, maybe not at all. Swiftending's own quote says it all:
"I've had countless games with my allies failing every lane extremely badly, however it's still easy to recover from that and feed on enemies more. I can see why people who wouldn't be able to do that think the MM is handicapping them, however if you can't exploit your enemies more than they exploit your allies then you're pretty much where you need to be."
Translation: You literally are going to get braindead players; you just have to try your best and win. If you're on support and you get braindead players...well good luck. Don't support next time, I guess?
Another quote from kzz:
"if you feel that you are a better player than your rating suggests (and a whole fuckton of people feel this way) then i would suggest looking at how you play and trying to change it. how you think about the game is probably off. something that i constantly see in mm are people who are afraid to die. dying is part of the game. u can't win without dying unless it's a stomp. quite often it's better to die and win a teamfight than preserve your singsing score and lose the teamfight/the game."
Anyways I'm done with this thread. The only thing I disagree with Zenoth on is that I do feel Valve can improve matchmaking significantly just by tweaking some characteristics (such as giving people the option to not have parties if you're solo queuing - some of my losses are from stacks with 1 player severely dragging down the team, i.e. "ancients sniper"). Perhaps I am expecting too much, but at the same time there are a lot of bad quality games - enough to warrant some criticism and review. Yes, you will still get lopsided games - the difference is that the lopsided games will be due to the team failing overall, not because 1-2 retards who are playing in a game clearly beyond their skill levels happened to be placed there.
tl;dr go mid if u think ur teammates are braindead maggots
problem with that reasoning is when people with similar philosophies meet in the same game on same team.
god forbid more of them.
the more you advance through ranks the more glaring this becomes. I.e (everyone sucks and I'm god given gift to human race)
how is that even fair to lose 40 points in 1 fucking solo game
don't lose the game.
'everyone's a special snowflake' - swiftending
also i'm giving up on cd, apparently the only reason i won most of my drafts was cuz i was drafting against 4.4k tards, once i started drafting against 5k+ players i lost pretty badly lol
do not play any form of captains in pubs it is a complete waste of time even in 5k+
me: give me bounty hunter
captain: ok here is crystal maiden for you
if you play cd or cm and you're above 5k+, the queue will be 10+ minutes long and you will end up vs lower rated players (4k-4.5k) which means you can win easier
this is how qojqva got 6.7k
No rage, but this game was hard. Luna liked to headbutt Gyro's missiles for no reason. Also she went Aghs over BKB.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/523682688