If it is possible for you to leave the kill to a more important hero in your team then you should do it (most of the time). You will obviously get a worse KDA by doing this.
^
yes , i only started november of last year i think cause im afraid of switching to dota 2.... i watch competitive scenes in dota 2 on twitch since TI2 making my switch from dota 1 to dota 2 easier ....my first account was a test account (http://dotabuff.com/players/140972224 ) and i have bad record on my first....
anyone who played dota 1 and watched dota 2 could see that it is the exact same game with better graphics......
It's possible that that guy learned how to play his supports through time. So it's possible that he might have sucked real hard at first, but got better at it.
Also, I personally don't think KDA matters *that* much on supports. Sometimes the supports have to 'feed' themselves in order to save the carry (last ditch effort via using skills, tactical feeding to distract enemy, possibly taking the risk to go suicide warding, etc). Deaths don't say everything. That being said, really low KDAs (1+, early 2s) can still be an indicator of how well you position your support.
no as long as you have good positioning, maintain wards, gank enemy carries, protect your carries, build support items, carry dust, sentries/gem, and do whatever it takes to win.
really high KDA on support is also a good indication that you are playing poorly on a support as well unless you have some really high win rate.
for example going 5-0-2 on a lost match is can show you are not helping your team enough
Last 3 support games
http://dotabuff.com/matches/511676167 4-6-11
http://dotabuff.com/matches/514425275 11-6-14
http://dotabuff.com/matches/513854909 4-2-9
All decent kda, i dont think that makes me a bad support, especially since i was hard supporting i could have died a lot more, but the key is positioning.
I really cant tell, my kda on most heroes is high but i am still really bad at the game, i dont think i play like a pussy or anything, but when i end a game with good kda and we still lost is probably my fault somehow that we lost the game.
I dont play support so i dont know, but i think in some cases you should just do your job, for example if you are playing disruptor you should always try to use your ulti and kinect field before dying, after you use your skills it doenst matter if you die you already did your job on the fight anyway.
having a good kda on a support on a win isnt a bad thing
having a good kda on a support on a loss is a bad thing
obviously I am not saying go 0-15-0
Maximize game impact while minimizing deaths. KDA doesn't matter as long as you are minimizing "bad deaths". Bad deaths include getting caught out or dieing in a team fight without contributing anything (casting spells, buying time). While kda certainly doesn't matter, it doesn't mean you can turn a blind eye to it. How many times have I seen a cm get picked and go "lol 2 ults for a cm".
I guess same can be said about every role.
There seems to be a misconception about KDA going on here. KDA is (Kills +Assists) / Deaths. So KDA is a measure of how many kills you PARTICIPATED IN without dying. So a high KDA means you're there for the fights and positioning well. Like any other stat it can be manipulated, but it is important.
Please stop saying completely retarded shit like "high KDA on supports means you're a worthless KSer."
Suporting is like 75% position and 25 % smart thinking. In late game, good position with good suporter can win or break you a game. Balancing this 2 things will make you good or regular suporter.
Some support heroes really can't do their job without being very likely to die in teamfights. That lowers their KDA. Many support heroes need minimal farm and assuming you set up a more farm intensive hero getting the farm its better to not take it with the support hero. That leads to them dieing somewhat more as well since they have less powerful items. Some support heroes primary function is keeping others alive rather than getting kills so their KDA will be very low compared to their impact on the game.
It's not "good" to have low KDA on a support but for pub stats having high KDA's often (not always) simply indicates you played very easy games and/or played selfishly. The best pro support players in the world get relatively low KDAs because properly playing a support hero in difficult games leads to KDAs typically in the 2 to 3 range.
If someone plays a support hero worrying about keeping KDA up, then they really are thinking about it the wrong way.
KDA = (kills + assists) / deaths
Thus a higher KDA means you participated in more kills as said before. Participating in kills is, as far as I remember, what a support SHOULD do. If you have more kills than assists it's probably because your carry can't last hit.
Best visage.eu reporting.
I dont mind diing if there is big chance that we win teamfight. Trying to taunt enemies to throw spells at me. (I still have powerfull birds when i die, am i right?)
@Relentless: This is accurate and correct. My comment was mostly directed at jussi and spirestoner.
And not all supports are created equal - or are always supports. I would imagine that Demon has a higher KDA with, say, Shadow Shaman than would be typical for that hero because he plays that hero in a non-support role. I also expect that, skill aside, a support Nyx will have a higher KDA than CM. And that can be further modified by enemy and ally hero composition...really, it's throwing darts.
But we can generally say that a higher KDA is better than a lower KDA, as long as it doesn't inhibit your ability to perform other key support functions.
@Shpitsuckit you are wrong. the supports arent there to participate in teamfights (and shot this through high kda), they are there to boost allies performance! there are several methods, u can bait a teamfight by getting focused and get cooldown on the opponents disabling spells, givr att speed or damage boost or even heal alllies!, block a chase on your teammate and dying as a result (saving him in the process), force staff out of fights, etc u can literally do zero damage in a teamfight and perform perfectly, even dying in the process for a better purpose, 1 more sec for cooldown to wear off on your TIDE (for example) and turn around the shit. splitpush and get levels far away in a lane and die having bought items off it and take the focus off your other more important teammates as well as sacrificing yourself dewarding like a retard to force fail dewards and wasting obvious smokes on enemies, or as i like to ask my supports! like vaelditthia-->go suicide and serve as a ward for me (at a certain aggresive position away from me to enable for perfect initiation or to serve as harras and fail free farm
kda? suck my dick, or ks? suck my dick! sometimes u just have to to be in a position to keep impacting the game
feeding? suck my dick
wards? not worth suiciding this time, fuck yourself
a support knows or should know and act accordingly!
good support? nothing matters, win matters! but does a win mean u did a gj? NO ->take some decision making courses! how to know if u did a good job as support in dota? figure out how annoying u r to the enemy and there's your answer! how? put yourself in their shoes (you should know from map mov and howmuch you've outplayed)
There is a limit of how much feeding is aceptable for a support, if a support is not careful he can feed the same guy over and over again and make the enemy snowball, that is NOT " creating space ".
"go suicide and serve as a ward for me" that can make you lose the game really fast.
KDA is iffy. Many supports don't have aoe damage to get lots of assists with whereas a hero like Phoenix has a huge ball of flame that damage everything within 1k radius and sun ray to rack up tons of assists.
It really varies by hero. Each one will have its own range of acceptable kda. It's always bad to die needlessly though.
Some times you should sacrifice yourself for the carry and the kiting of the enemy carry when he is focusing you like a retard is also very useful
One of the problems i face in pubs are people that focus supports to get kills instead of fixing strong heroes to win
KDA varies between carries as well, this discussion isn't limited just to supports. A lycan or PL can go 2-3-5 or something like that for KDA around 2 and still have tremendous game impact since they are pushers whereas a bounty hunter or slark under 3 means you're probably losing.
- sacrifice to protect the carry
- don't last hit a kill unless strictly necessary, instead leave the final blow to the carry
- be careful when you ward blindly going high ground etc.
overall, KDA doesn't matter much on a support but ofc to some extents, too low is bad, as too high is too.
there's a good balance in the middle that you've gotta respect if you want to support properly
As long as you're not afraid to initiate because you might ruin your kda should be ok. Your goal should be to win the game, not to have kda.
If you play single-target heroes like omni or bane your kda is very likely to be low. At least if you do your job instead of farm radi or shiva for 30 min.
I am not saying that i care about KDA, i am saying the if a suport dies it must be to save someone or to protect someone or making the enemy waste time, if a suport dies because he was at a bad position that its feeding and can cost you the game.
'As long as you're not afraid to initiate because you might ruin your kda should be ok.'
best advice you can get. there are too many WR players buying blink dagger force staff and shadow blade just to keep their KDA high.....
KDA is good but it' not the only thing to look, basically if you play super defensive and never initiate you may get good KDA but your carry may die a few times instead of you, it isn't the best thing to do.
your job as a support is to make your carry farm, and provide vision... switch lanes if needed... obviously it depends with the lane, if you're dual lane hardlane against a support and void your main objective must be to screw void farm more than get your teamate farm. Never take last hits but it don't mind if you take kill, especially with supports that can't farm alone and when you're laning with a carry that can farm fast once he has a good laning phase.
depends on hero, sometimes support should die to save his carry, but there are also heroes, who cant just die(like windrunner, phoenix, abaddon etc)
It's important for supports to have a reason when they decide to try to escape instead of just "trying to live".
Make sure you did whatever was possible to turn a fight before you die or escape. When you try to escape and/or when you are going to die escape in a direction that will cost the other team time and position. Move to die where and when it will prevent the enemy from following it up with additional kills. Often this means you should not go in the direction of your team even though moving towards your team typically increases your chances to live.
If you choose a direction that forces the enemy to move even a few hundreds units away from your team to kill you it will dramatically increase the chances that the rest of your team can get away.
better me then someone else. Running in whole enemy team when needed to save someone
so yeah... my kda sucks hard, but do i care? nope
That doesn't work out on ALL assists. There are a couple that it's pretty damn easy to get the K. Offhand, Warlock and Lich are really, really easy to do that with.
Here's an example of why kda doesn't mean jack shit.
http://dotabuff.com/matches/523468780
Our weaver had a kda of 16 but was completely ineffective. I destroyed qop mid as razor, weaver offlaned vs alch and some support, alch got free farm and raped us. I dunno if weaver can be blamed completely for not checking alch, but seems like he could go gank him in jungle at some point before he turned into beast mode. Most passive weaver ever, just concerned with not dying.
if you can die useful to your teammates , like if you die but enemies die 3 heroes. thats actually a very good trade. My 6k MMR friend once said , if play dota , dont be too afraid to die , sometimes u can sacrifice ur life so your friends can win the teamfights . But of course dont die like stupid
Deaths and Assists are all that matter for supports. Lack of deaths and high assists. You want the carries to get the kills.
Yeah it matters,
I just realised this recently too
But don't get too focus on it
1st priority: how to win
2nd priority: get a good KDA
I've seen a lot of people who put good KDA as first priority and they are not winning much
Your efforts will go unrecognized. The praise will go to the carries. No one will remember what you did. The history books won't acknowledge you. If there was a 'gold spent on support' stat then things might be different.
Lol everything in dota goes unrecognized unless you're some pro player winning tourneys. Besides only winning moves MMR.
I'd say as support even in good games you will average at best 1:1 KDR. And worst if u are the bait/sacrifice. I would say 1-10 CM average for a 50% winrate CM. Balancing games where you KS as support and 1:1 and 1:10 feed games. I'd say a support would be in the ballpark of 1.5 to 2.0 KDA at best. A better benchmark for support is how much your carries got farm in the first 15 mintues. Also how much wards you bought per game. Say "sentry wards per game" and "vision wards per game".
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as you can see im an average support player that have a decent KDA and winrate.. now here's the thing ive met a guy on solo queue and he plays support like a professional player (babysitting me cause im the carry, have set of sentry and wards always, good positioning etc.) and i think hes a much more better than me in playing support... so i decided to look he's stats... and i found out that he's also a support player with good winrates on support heroes (50% above) but his KDA is very low thats why i think that im not doing my job well... i really do not want to die in games to have at least average kda stats on my heroes...
this is my perspective in games:
1.) when we are winning and raping the other team
- play aggresive but dont die! use AOE skills, but dont go front or ill die and lose KDA
2.) when we are losing badly and my teammates are feeding
- wtf... everyone feeding in their lanes with their bad decisions/player X is intentionally feeding cause he didnt get what he wants
-> try to support their lanes, buying sentries constantly if their are invi heroes, often there for counter initiation-> still no use ( my hope is lost) -> sit to the fountain or ill die and lose KDA
3.) equally matched but the carry of the other team wants to focus me always in team fights( player X - slark/slark ; me - crystal maiden)
- f*ck i hate those carries who focus me on late game team fights im not even worth a kill-> gonna buy forcestaffs and ghost scepter and kite them... or plan B ill wait from the back so they dont focus me when the teamfight starts... (teamfight starts).... ok ill use my skills now... out of nowhere slark/riki passes all my teammates and turn on me-> time to kite but i cant really do anything much.. if i back off this pesky slark/riki is gonna keepchasing me but if i go front ill die through AOE
4.) teammates get a bad teamfight and got initiated
- f*ck you gonna go to base bye :D ( or at least i will skill/forcestaff them from back but not let myself die I HOPE)
* im much more of a defensive support player and really feel bad when i die ... is KDA really a big deal for supports?