General DiscussionWhy is Death Prophet not a top pick/ban?

Even if the game goes into late game, silence is nevertheless a strong spell. Especially when BKB's are on a low duration counter. Her ulti goes through BKB and her insane ability to push/turtle makes her viable.

Please allow me to take this one...

Oh wait, I'm retarded and have no clue. You make a good argument. Probably something to do with being, like, green and stuff?

Reminds everyone of: https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTOJoxCbDSliUDTr8MXRggJufetpqeDbb2ZBDjh5hrYTFJoeAwH

GROTBAGS FTW!

Bad attack animation with somewhat average starting damage. as well as bad agility growth.
her swarm is somewhat good, but she has bad cast animation and because of the swarm speed it can be dodged by heroes easily from far away, rapidly scaling mana cost as well. you will easily run out of mana and -25 cost from witchcraft will not help.
If you have your ultimate. enemies will try to run from you, or focus you first, and bring you down fast.
silence is good but they can still activate items (BKB, shadow blade, TP scroll).
Spirits' damage is physical, which falls out later.
She has snowball power but can be shut down easily as well, and she is one of the heroes that will have hard time getting up after a fall.

That's all I could think about, or pros just suck at drafting as always.

i played her, check my previous game

Even with all those things going for her, she isn't really a team pick as there are preferential picks and she isn't one of them. She is still a great hero but its like.....she has no lock down, ult goes wherever it wants (not hero focused), one silence doesn't make her good enough, tendency to go regen items and tank (so not hex, silence because why would you).

As good as she is she is equally easy to bring down, doesn't have escape. You see (hear) her ult you can get away too easy and while you have some push going for you if your team is being locked down by disables and stuns there is not a lot she can do to help them out.

There are only two people on the records list with above 50 games with DP, she just isn't a choice pick with the variety of better options. Even the guy above who had a good game with her has 1 DP game out of about 1700 games and again his items show no lockdown or disable but leaning towards tanking.

A good point of reference is this guy http://dotabuff.com/players/86942591

DP is really good I have seen amazing plays by some of my friends but as good as she is, when you are in the pick phase and they have a bunch of lock-down, disable, and mobility you look to the next best thing and DP comes way down the list.

Every hero has its cons.

I feel her animation stinks but she does have alright base damage and armor.

She isn't OP but her skillset is definitely strong for competitive play. The cast time of swarm isn't horrendous. Its faster than an SF razing and has incredible AoE. Short CD makes it a strong teamfight spell too. And the swarm missile speed is NOT slow. At its maximum width, its impossible to kite out of unless you're not in range. Its cast range is quite far compared to most spells too.

At level 6 without any items, she has 494 mana. She has enough mana to cast all of her spells without items. With a mana boots, she has enough to cast 2 additional waves. Plus, you normally build survivability and mana on a DP.

Her ultimate's primary purpose is for pushing and major teamfights. You should be building survivability so you don't get bursted instantly and with proper positioning and allies, she could be difficult to aim. She can be placed at the back due to the range of her spells.

I agree that silence easily countered by BKB and her ulti does fall out late game.

I disagree regarding her being unable to get up after a bad start. She has good farming ability and items only benefit her survivability wise. Her turtling/pushing skills do not diminish and positioning helps her from being bursted in teamfights.

She has her cons but she can really fit into the current meta. She is good against both weaver and naix, has turtling/pushing abilities (which are in high demand) and most of all, getting towers usually win you the game. Linkin is meaningless against AoE silence, and her silence makes a Naix open prey in fights.

@Havoc, her ulti is controlled by her attack I believe. If you attack a target, it will focus it.

But like I said, she isn't some overpowered sure pick win or suits all situation hero, but she's good! But almost never, never never picked in competitive and I don't know why.

The spirits will focus on the last hostile unit that was targeted. Seems that it is AOE till target focused :/

She shines in pushing and big teamfights, you hardly need to worry about damage being distributed to creeps thanks to swarm and if the person you're aiming is waaaay too far for you to manual attack without dying, then it doesn't matter what hero you are.

Rod of Atos on her is KILLER against heroes that do not build BKB, its literally a longer hex thanks to silence. 2 carries she rapes are naix + weaver which are currently very very popular. Her silence cast range also means she can silence supports at the back who wouldn't normally build stuff.

Her major cons are her fragility and her not scaling so well from the 40th minute mark onwards. But with her ulti, you can take down plenty of towers and farm your entire team up.

tl;dr, Heroes like SF are weak but have insane farming potential. DP has crazy flash farming capabilities as well as pushing. Gold should not be an issue unless you're against a lineup which is good against you, in which case, you shouldn't have used DP.

I guess you guys aren't aware of the meta. What are the most popular mid heroes right now? Puck QoP Storm OD sometimes Weaver and Alchemist. But Weaver and Alchemist are generally put because you picked the hero because he is strong and versatile but in the end you had to lane him there. The thing with those heroes are that they are mobile gankers expect OD. But OD is picked because he wins the lane against all of those heroes so he is more like a counter-pick. How is a DP gonna gank? It could happen but you need a reliable disable or a very good rune like haste or invis.

I'm putting in any criticism everyone says at the top for a summary.

If the enemy mid leaves even ONCE post level 6, DP can take the tower down alone in a short amount of time.
DP has great rune control with swarm (forcing the opposing mid to sacrifice a bunch of EXP to contest runes).
DP is picked for aggresive pushing/teamfight.

EDIT: Storm is a bad mid. Very situational hero.

@Sam

This is partially my argument and also my current issue with tinker. The game gives itself nowadays to heroes like QoP and Puck with other being able to pick up the rear. Heroes like Tinker and Death Prophet aren't that desirous given the nature of the hero in the current meta.

@Havoc

I agree that Tinker fell out of the meta because of that. He gets shut down too easily. DP might somewhat similar to this but not to such an exaggerated extent. She isn't as heavily item dependent. And her core usually comes in easy to build up parts. (Bloodstone, Rod of Atos, Bracers, VG, Mana boots, Drums)

Still, I still don't get why DP is so ostracized.

https://docs.google.com/document/d/14hl3IZ1AzeJqDnXMm_3EzBgBn9PFOhPNhCm8szXvqqs/pub

Check out this somewhat old hero tier list. DP is picked/banned ZERO times. Freaking zero.

tinker-stinker

Lycan was not picked either but he is still a viable hero. People are just afraid to try out new heroes. Do you remember the times were Alchemist was an outcast? He was considered trash. Until he was first picked at Defense 3 and then suddenly he made a huge explosion in picking and is now a top pick. DP won't ever be a top pick because of lack of disable but she soon might start getting picked. Warlock is not picked because of this reason as well.

I really hate how some heroes are just outcasted because of nonsensical reasons.

If it wasn't for that jungling nerf, I bet Lycan would be amongs tier1/tier2 heroes right now. I created this thread because of how underloved DP is, like she might at most be considered situational but then 0 picks/bans?!

Warlock is one of the greatest teamfight support heroes. His weakness I guess is absolute 0 ganging potential as a support. He wrecks teamfights with fatalbonds, upheaval and his ulti though.

srsly?

Dp is a shithero bcause she doesnt fit anywhere. The only lane where DP is halfway okish is mid, and why would you need a non gank hero like DP mid? Thats like sending dusa mid, srsly OP use ur brain for once.

almost as bad as sending od, razor or sf mid
who the fuck would be that dumb

I would much rather have DP mid than DK. If you are not going to gank you may as well really threaten the tower instead of just chip at it.

If you are going to use DP mid you want to go with a strong pushing and teamfight lineup. DS offlane, LD carry, Chen and Jakiro support...that would be hard to stop.

You get heroes who fall of late game and then you get DP whos on her own level. Silence is good but she basically turns into a mobile aoe orchid. If spirits did % damage so she could scale she would probably be much better.

I love death prophet. Kinda don't have a good win ratio on her right now, but she's a very strong pusher. However that's all she does is push. Ganking is really hard, doesn't usually work out. My last game vs razor mid they had no wards, no rune control, so I bottled a haste, went bottom to gank AM and warlock pushed really far up. Well my auto sucked, you rely completely on swarm for dmg, and after a couple swarms I was oom and couldn't finish them off, gank failed. Lack of disable really hurts her.

In all I like the hero a lot but she need a particular team setup to do well as she's not a carry, not a support, and not a disabler. Heros like Jakiro can fill pretty much the same role yet are far more flexible.

I'm ignoring some smart dicks who haven't read through the thread.

DP with a Rod rapes carries like weaver and naix easily. DP threatens to destroy the tower in your one single gank attempt. DP's spirits are an extreme threat till very late into the game where 22 spirits who do 50 damage each every 3 seconds isn't that strong. Her ulti doesn't fall off as many people think.

Disabling items like Shiva and Rod of Atos can be gotten on her to make up for cc.

Its sort of like why you pick timbersaw even though he doesn't scale, he wrecks the midgame so hard that lategame doesn't matter.

No matter what you say, OP will still think DP should replace batrider in pro matches.

And no matter what I say, people think they know better.

Mentioned several times, DP has potential and is situationally very viable.

I guess a high percentage of the dotabuff community are egocentric , and will never listen to suggestions made by others.

I guess its because acknowledging someones idea makes them feel inferior.

Constructive criticism would have be fun but nope, gotta add that bit of "imafuckingassholerememberthat" to the comment.

Edited: Now you'll never know what comment I was talking about.

These are the kind of comments that kill any kind of seriousness you wanted to put into a topic and begin shitstorms over "I'm better than you will ever be/My e-penis is larger than yours" discussions. Thanks to that single post, now everyone who reads this topic and was thinking about trying her and reaches that comment will reconsider picking DP for a few days :/

Anyway. I think DP was picked more often back when Heart gave a static 40-hp regeneration at all times and Bloodstone had yet to see a nerf. Yes, those were Dota1 days.

I agree. I guess there are better communities for ideas on gameplay. For Dotabuff, the culture is as such. Users come here with inflated egos.

Why'd you think I delete the comment? Thank you judging me though.

I posted if out of the fact that anyone who quick shotted down the idea obviously didn't read thread because they just think they know better. I don't like wagging e-penis shit either, thats why I deleted that comment.

I just used it because sometimes, e-penis shit is needed to shut some people up.

Its OP's own thread. A thread for ideas and discussions. But some people ideas here are too egocentric and shitty.

Like you said she's situationally very valuable and doesn't fit the current meta all that well. If you need a mid/pusher and have enough support disables and carries already she's good but she doesn't fit typical support role or carry role.

Snowman, go play LoL, you dont seem to understand dota. DP is just not the best at anything, deal with it.

If you want pushing power you pick LD, Tiny, Furion, Chen, Enchantress
If you want a tanky hero which just cant be ignored go for ET, BB, Centaur
if you want something with silence then pick Silencer, Puck, or just a hero like ss and buy orchid

basicly, you have no reason to pick DP, EVER.

oh god please tell me more about the meta you're all talking about

^
DP, chen, ench, furion and LD.

new meta!

when was the last time DP was picked competitively? would like to check out the replay.

Here's one... http://www.playdota.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=7568&d=1259967317

Back from the 6.57b(!) update. Dota1 days.

I think her only viable skill is silence because if you want towers fast + ganking ability you get Lesh he pushes just as fast BUT he also has a stun (good even in lategame) and overall scales better lategame than DP. I think both heroes are simular but Lesh is simply more powerful but less survivable

wow that's way back. never in dota2?

pity though i really like DP. i guess the problem might how all her skills needs the witchcraft passive making her need levels real bad and real fast

lol, it's happening again. People who say that "if pros don't pick x hero, it means the hero is BAD" yeah right.

Alch was never picked 2 years ago, like ever. Same for OD, Razor, and a bunch of other heroes. They became top picks because the pros figured out what they wanted to do with them/the metagame changed.

Who knows, someone might pick DP at one point, and it will fit somehow because of a particular comp, or a changing metagame. And others will catch on. Pros are very trendy, they tend to pick/ban what they see others pick/ban. Very few players are actually original or creative. They just apply and execute what they see or know will work. And they do it damn well!

Hero's become part of the META because of nerfs and buffs, not because someone suddenly discovers said hero years later. These teams constantly practice with heros and new strategies. Death prophet isn't picked because her pushing potential is easily matched by a Natures Prophet who has a global TP to push multiple lanes, you could go BoTs but then again, so can Tinker or even Engima and both are more viable and durable in a team fight. She has Silence, but then so does Silencer and his can't be dodged.

The Meta is defined by the pros, not the pubs. Its not as creative because nothing changes about the heros, you can't simply ignore the team you're up against because you want to push down mid lane towers with death prophet.

A hero doesn't have to "suck" to suck in a pro match, this isn't your average game in the trench.

Actually I remember Na'Vi picking her against Rox.Kis not long ago. Maybe a couple of months. If I find the video I will put the link.

Interesting http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6WyH68hgVc

Dunning-Kruger effect that is actually wrong. Heroes DO become a part of the "meta" not only through nerfs and buffs but also because some team decides to try something different. Recent examples of this are support Naga Siren, support Gyrocopter and support Spirit Breaker. Sure, Spirit Breaker has been buffed quite a bit but who would have thought he would primarily be played as a support?

I always have played SB as a support. It just makes sense for an initiator who needs few items to start ganking.

Relentless visionary confirmed

I have even seen doom played as a lane support, due to the creep eating he can up items easily as well as having the creeps skills and his own to keep him alive and assist a lane. This is really why they are "pro" players because they could pick any hero almost and carry/support with them and find a way for it to work to their advantage.

@Relentless
Interested in the SB concept. Do you mean as kind of a lane support/pulling/roaming because I looked at the games and the items indicate a usual spirit breaker build except the necro one. I would assume it would be more of a assisting support as in helping lanes get kills by charging instead of item support e.g. mek, pipe etc cause it was my assumption that a lot of people play him offlane like so.

http://dotabuff.com/players/103176226/matches?hero=spirit-breaker&game_mode=&match_type=real