General DiscussionWhy can't I stay in the high bracket?

Do u lose most the games u play in high? that might be the reason. I think its only possible to lose MMR from losing which means everytime u lose ur MMR is lower than the cutoff for High Bracket. When u win a few games u go back to high. To consistently stay in high u probably need to win almost all ur games

I actually think its about 50/50 when I play in high. My last game in high was earlier today I played weaver and went offlane vs a Veno and KotL who just completely dominated the lane and I stupidly played too aggressive. But the last three games in high before that one were wins so Idk.

I just looked through ur games and found out u have a lot of long lose streaks but barely any long win streaks. That can be a big problem also despite ur 51% winrate

How much do the win/loss streaks matter? If you look at my recent games most of the ones in normal were stomps, shouldn't that raise my MMR?

Just try to play every game your best,concentrate and motivate your self to not do stupid mistakes. If you made mistakes check replay and see ..and try to not do it again and again. Example if you die solo vs 3-4 , if you getting ganked and you had ward..or bad positioning in team fights that all matters alot. When you start too play close to perfect dota you ll be promoted too higher bracket really fast trust me. Gl in improving

@OP: Ur right and also wrong. At ur very early stages, (first 100 games) u lost more than half of them. The more games u play the less ur MMR will fluctuate. If u lost more early then it will be hard to gain/lose MMR since it stabilizes (ur MMR probably stabilized while u are still in normal bracket). If u win much more than u lose in ur first 100-200 games (60% winrate+) then u will have high chance to stay in High/Very High even if u lose 10 games in a row.

Now about the stomps, stomps DO increase ur MMR but not that much, thats why its called stomps, those games are considered "easy" for you.

Compare yourself most played heroes and mine. You are even better with k/d/a and win rates compare to mine most played heroes but I m in very high always. + I don`t even stack I play 80% of my games like solo que and 20% with friends. You are doin smth terribly wrong in game or you just play with friends which are in normal bracket so you can`t get much mmr with them. Try to play 10-20 games good like solo que and than tell me you are high/very high or not :) Gl

"If u lost more early then it will be hard to gain/lose MMR since it stabilizes"

That is one thing I was afraid of. When I first started to play Dota 2 I had never even touched a MOBA before so I had no idea what I was doing as you can see from my first page of games. Maybe this is the reason why I am having troubles moving up?

"Try to play 10-20 games good like solo que and than tell me you are high/very high or not"

Most of my recent games have been solo queue wins and I'm still in normal..

Yes ur completely right. I've found out that most people in Very High (the top 2%) have had experience with dota 1 before. This is why they stomp there first games and then they stay in the High brackets forever.
There is no real fast way to get u up. Only way is the win more than losing without playing with stacks(even then it will be a long process since u already have 1000+ games)

If the stats really matter to you:
Jus do what most people do who started off new to the game, make a new account.

It isn't really the stats that matter to me so much as being able to play with/against better players which will help me improve my game in order to keep up. Basically I just want to play with better players.

pretty sure your number of games don't matter much
while it is true that your MMR fluctuates a lot more in your first 200 games after that it really doesn't matter much
(there might be a minor factor giving you a bonus based on how many games you've played)

stomping your normal games really doesn't give you that much MMR indeed
there are 2 factors here
you performance is put in relation to the overall game score, so if your team is winning by a large margin having a good kda doesnt do too much for you

another aspect is that you are probably on the very high end of normal
that means that in normal bracket games you are at the top end of the players thus expected to do really well and gaining little MMR while doing so

This topic covered by relentless goes over MMR pretty well
http://dotabuff.com/topics/2013-09-19-54-win-ratio-and-still-not-in-high-bracket

So what you are trying to say is that I have to do very well in my high matches in order to gain a lot of MMR? And if I do poorly in high games I shouldn't lose as much because the game is harder?

Read the link.

Basically what relentless said is that win streaks are the best way to significantly raise your MMR in a short period of time. If that is the case I shouldn't have fallen back into normal after a three game win streak in high two days ago.. Although I think the reason I went back to normal was that last game in high where I played Vengeful Spirit, a hero which I am terrible with, and I did pretty terribly but my team ended up winning even after my early feeds.

Also after I fell into normal I stomped my next three games to make it a six win streak and I still didn't get back into high.

I dunno how it works. I only get to high when I stack, but I did at one point (recently, only on my 5th page of games), have a 6 win streak followed by two losses and then a 7 win streak.

No luck.

It's a shame.

i wouldn't actually count on winning/losing streaks resulting in even greater MMR gain/loss

while it is true that streaks indicate that you are either under- or overrated they also indicate that the games you are getting are either too easy or too hard and thus justifying win streaks giving you actually less MMR
so that in the end it might be the best solution to completely ignore streaks to get a better MMR system (might again be different in the first ~200 games like everything concerning MMR)

We could just say matchmaking fails and leave it at that...but that would be no fun for me so...I will give a detailed example showing in very simple numbers how the math for a TSR system works. Hopefully I can explain this without the super boring equations no one would understand.

How has your recent history (possibly) impacted your magical hidden MMR score to determine if you play in High or Normal?

First, what is the line between High and Normal...supposedly its 85% of players in Normal. What MMR is that? Well it will change all the time as the population drifts and inflates MMRs with new players adding in easy free points...but the number of unique players per month has been fairly stable the last few weeks so lets assume its more or less stable.

How can we guess the MMR for the brackets? There are about 167k teams who have currently 1 game out of 6.5 million players. So 1.28% of players have organized to play at least 1 team matching game recently. Only 39431 of those have stable team with a rated score from the last 3 team matching games... 0.30% of players. It is likely these players tend to be rated higher than the other 99.7% of pubs who are not on a rated team...somewhat higher anyway. How much? Valve keeps hiding more and more information so we will have to guess.

The median score for rated teams is currently 3049 MMR. That is down from 3075 a couple months ago...so it does seem fairly stable.

85% of rated teams are below 3770...if the rated teams are a representative sample of all players than this is roughly the cut-off for High bracket. But I think players who actually get together and produce a team rating are likely to be better than typical pubs...so lets assume that High Bracket cuts off at 3500.

Valve has admitted that players in a game can span a range of at least 1k MMR. So players in a game near the low end of High bracket might often be anywhere from 3000 to 4000...although being closer to 3500 is more likely.

http://dotabuff.com/teams/379937 your team unfortunately, for this discussion, recently switched a player and the tMMR has not updated on dotabuff yet. But maybe you know what it is and can judge for yourself how relatively close you might be, given your team's average MMR, to 3500.

Now, with that context lets go back 40 games and see the match history. Recent history is as follows

1 High, 6 Normal, 1 High, 4 Normal, 1 High, 5 Normal, 1 High, 4 Normal, 1 High, 2 Normal, 3 High, 6 Normal, 1 High.

Based on this it appears likely that your MMR is a bit below the cut-off for High so that you are queing into High games about 25% of the time.

Now maybe that means your MMR is around 3300. Lets see if I can model its changes starting back 40 games with that assumed starting point and starting with moderate uncertainty. Remember I don't know the details of Valve has put in the code or what stupid influences KDA might have (should be none, but probably is something). I am just trying to show you what it would be like very approximately. I want to show you how the pattern works if you could see the MMR numbers so you can understand how the uncertainty impacts the change in MMR. See how your MMR stabilizes and destabilizes with this system.

3195.......3265.......3220.......3250.........3230.......3200.........3155.......3085........2980.........2820..........2580.........2740.......
Lose -105, Win +70, Lose -45, Win +30, Lose -20, Lose -30, Lose, -45, Lose -70, Lose -105, Lose -160, Lose -240, Win +160,

2980.........2820.........2890.......2845.......2875.......2920........2990........2945.......2975........3020.......2990.......3010.......
Win +240, Lose -160, Win +70, Lose -45, Win +30, Win +45, Win +70, Lose -45, Win +30, Win +45, Lose -30, Win +20,

2995......3005.......3020........3040........3025.......3005.......3020.......3040........3070.......3135........3205........3305.........3235.....
Lose -15, Win +10, Win+15, Win +20, Lose -15, Lose -20, Win +15, Win +20, Win +30, Win +45, Win +70, Win +105, Loss -70

3280.......3350.......3305........3335......
Win +45, Win +70, Lose -45, Win +30

By my estimation you are just barely ahead in MMR of where you were 40 games ago. Any of these score could que into High or Normal, but Normal is a lot more likely. You qued into Normal 75% of the time.

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So putting all that in summary. Most likely the reason you can't stay in High bracket is that you are not quite there yet. You need to get a nice long win streak to get solidly into High territory and then win 50%...a loss streak could knock you back down.

When you are just coming off a win or loss streak it is easy to quickly reverse what happened. But if you stabilizes with a win/loss/win/loss sequence the momentum of those uncertainty number evaporates and you have to start it rolling again with another streak. That is how TSR systems work and while new account move quickly and old ones seem to be stuck. They are not really stuck....you just need a streak to get them going.

One of this days, when I get the time to actually launch Dota2 I'll give you a case to give you some more fun Relentless :)

im struggle to get into very high and some1 struggle to high xD, and how come get into high is that hard? just solo que and you'll get it
p/s: not trying to cocky here or anything.

What you may not realize Smoke is that you are really quite far above average and most people simply cannot play dota like you do because they cannot process the barrage of information dota throws at you quickly and accurately enough to make a wise and timely decision and even if they can do that...they can't click fast enough, precisely enough to execute a proper response to most dota situations whether team fight, gank or just lasthitting.

Despite all the e-peen heavy posting, most of the best dota players really are not aware that they are anything special and are truly surprised that others cannot do what seems easy to them. Smoke your last 20 games, qued 75% into High and 25% into Normal. Getting into High seems easy to you. Getting into Very High seems easy to some people...and for some people getting into High seems impossible.

Everyone has to play dota with the mind, fingers, and eyes they have been given and people are not equally equipped. This is not like a simple test in school that is designed so that anyone who really attempts to pass it and does not have a serious learning disability will do ok....its like a vicious curve in a tough weed-out course that tries to get ppl to change to a different major. Most people simply cannot be in the top 15% of the players (High bracket). That does not make them stupid or lazy....usually it just means their fingers are a just bit too slow and clumsy to beat out faster more nimble fingered players.

Dude relentless, smoke is just a stink boy. The answer to the OP's question is, of course, "Because you are st ink boy." Did you really need to write a huge paragraph just to say "yo bro, ur a god damned stink boy at the dota 2 video game" ?

before insult someone else maybe you should read carefully first.

god damned stink boy just talk me lol

Relentless is totally right in that long win sprees can push you up a lot even on old account. In America, I pretty much always solo queued into Very High, but after staying in Asia for a bit and playing on the SEA server, where the players are imo much better (and my ping much worse), I fell into the high part of the High bracket. When I got back to America, I was in the high bracket, but when I started accruing a significant win spree (like out of 20 games lose like 3), my MMR got back reasonably quickly. Start winning more and it will work. As to how to win, that's a completely different matter.