General DiscussionMMR RATING,something strange happend I have question?

Anyone? :D

I don't believe that it is possible to lose MMR from a win. In the most extreme team mismatches in tMM you just gain zero points.

The page of game you are on can change a lot with no change in your MMR because only the average of the teams is used. If you are the top player in the game the average MMR is much lower than if you are the bottom player in the game.

If you did very well in a game...usually is partly because it was game where you were one of the better players...so probably a lower average MMR game. If you did poorly in a game usually it was partly because you were one of the weakest players in the game...probably a higher MMR game. Of course hero choice has a lot bigger impact than this, but still you can see the effect.

Anyway we know from examples given by developer admins on the dev forum that matching will put people with 1k MMR difference on the same team. Suppose you are in a Very High game (average MMR is ~4k or more). Your team is rated at 3.3k, maybe you are the best at 4k. Maybe this makes you an average player in a Very High game...but sometimes it might put you in a High level game where the average is 3.5k and you balance out a 3k player. Your MMR does not need to change at all for that to happen.

im surprised you held very high for so long with THAT record..

@Benao There are quite a good amount of players in very high that have less tthan a 50% winrate.

@Bojidota When this happens, it means you're on the border of high and very high. All it takes is one loss to an inferior team with a lower MMR to bring you down to high.

no i know people with 48% who solo queue into first page games with tons of games nowhere close to dropping a bracket

^He is right. What 50% means is actually that your rating is stable. Below 50% means it is going down. Above 50% means it is going up.

Now usually people who are in Very High have a rating that is going up and keeps going up because equal opponents are too rare and often there is just no one in the que better than their team so they stay well over 50% permanently...but it doesn't have to be that way.

If you somehow manage to lose points slowly by losing a lot of close games and win points quickly by winning a few tough games with high KDA you can end up with a Very High MMR and below 50% winrate. The people I know who solo que into Very High but have below 50% winrate have two traits in common.

[1] They get mad or sulky and throw games.
[2] They que with really bad, low MMR friends and lose games.

Shit I just realized what I said sounded wrong. The first reply was to the above poster and the second part was to the op. I edited it to fix my mistake.

Very high is around the top 2% or so I believe. That's still too wide, which means there are still a lot of horrible players in very high. I play with them almost every single game and I usually am in the top 3 pages of live games. Now, if you were downgraded from very high to high it simply means dota 2 is considering you a worse player now, and it does not have anything to do with you playing with that low skilled guy. I play with low skilled people frequently, I actually improve their bracket and I haven't been lost any "mmr" for playing with them. But really... very high sucks... Just keep winning and specially doing well in games and you'll improve your bracket eventually.

there are games like this here:
http://dotabuff.com/matches/280422631

i solo queued and got matched with a 4 man stack (seemingly far inferior and down 1 player)
kinda flattering that mm thinks that i balance this game out or i am the player who gets closest to doing that
didnt help that they actually picked all of the high impact roles so that there's no way i can impact the game at all

whatever i don't actually think that this game had a calculated 50% win rate for each side so the way mm works here is that you actually lose close to no MMR for losing those highly skewed games

i am pretty sure at one point in hon u could lose -1 even for winning game if u stacked with super low rated players

I don`t know really what to think about my fast mmr going down. Last 15 games i have like 70% win rate.In that 15 games my worst 2 games k/d/a loss were 3-8-9 and 1-7-2 .. games was fcking hard couldn`t do much more better..

well i can understand those very high mates of you being beloew 50% relentless but that just means they are barely good enough for very high since their winrate in case of no throw/friends should be far too close to 50% win... why i say this is because i throw WAAaaayyyyyy too many games... its daily and whenever i meet guys that tick me off or purposely go ruin my lane, dont listen to me etc! russians, coratians whatever shit country they are from and i am still way over 50% win in terms of extra games (total amount of games).

in other words your friends suck

supposedly there is no fixed rating required for each bracket.
for example if we assume that you are playing at very high bracket and decide to have a break from dota 2,
so in the meanwhile alot of players get higher rating than you,
as a result you might actually drop to the high bracket without playing a game. (maybe)

what you dont understand is that when you lose games on purpose you lose MMR and future games become easier to win
it's like people saying: i lose so many games when i play with my shitty rl friends i would have 60%+ if i solo queued all the time
which is not how the fucking system works

and I'm pretty sure that most of the games you intentionally lose are leaning more towards a loss anyway but whatever

No,I m not ruining games on purpose never. But i don`t understand I m rly in high now lmao .. last 3 games was high and 3 loss,i couldn`t do anything about that.
http://dotabuff.com/players/115641779

http://dotabuff.com/matches/308994889 This game i was 4-0 and killed mid twice and gank all, but Anti mage was joke going offlane,prophet afk wood farming and axe no dagger build (going shadow blade). Dunno how i m with these low guys in matchmaking..I don`t deserve it.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/309015773 This game DK lvl 9 at safe lane after 30 min. with 0-10. I was ganked 24/7 and i bought wards as lifestealer.. Cos nyx refuse to buy it.

http://dotabuff.com/matches/309030963 Here i was outplayed,rly can`t do nothing vs spirit braker tryharding..and naix who left at half game with 0 farm and 0-3..so + 4v5

I m mad :DDD

bogidota, for the love of god, just play dota.

I dooo :D

Step 1: Don't lose the games in high
Step 2: Carry the bad players
Step 3: ?????
Step 4: Prophet/Profit/Very high again

Plus your winrate in the past month has been hovering below 50%

Hm I don`t understand your step 3 and 4. What prophet? My last game was very high again..so i m fine i think.

lol, it's a common internet joke gud sir, just keep winning (consistently).

Didn`t knew for that joke sry :D Y..I m trying always to win.My goal is to get 55% win rate so i can have invite for ixdl (invite league) , and next goals if somehow possible top 50 slark,bs and naga in future. And ofc to get decent team for cm,that`s even harder than this previous things. = )

I actually experienced the same thing, i havent looked if my bracket changed, but as people said before, i went from page 1 to 5 to not even finding myself (well i wudnt bother looking beyond page 10). I've had 2 HUGE lose streaks, like 13 loses, then another 10 or so, from playin with just horrible people. And i've been around playin in the same bracket for over a thousand games, so it feels weird that it would just drop like that. Well well.

The only way you lose a lot of MMR is a loss streak. Each loss adds to your uncertainty and therefore the next game is worth more points up or down. If you keep losing you lose a larger amount of MMR each time. But like I said you can be in Very High and still play games in High or Normal depending on who you que with or the vagueries of matching.

I do not have a good feel for how fast their system is set to accelerate MMR loss in losing streaks because I have never been on a team that had a losing streak and my personal losing streaks are of course invisible (tMMR it tells you each change). Would anyone be willing to report how much MMR they lost on a tMMR losing streak?

I was actually solo queueing while gettin the losses which is just ridiculous, depressing and impressive at the same time

Relentless, so you mean if I tryhard win 5 in arrow games or smth i will get alot of mmr fast? I think that`s true cos couple of times when i did that i saw me on 2-3 page like `always` lol.. I think mm works like something that tempts you every time and than if you winning vs `better players` you get more high mmr fast. I think gpm/xpm and k/d/a is most common to use for getting rating too, but just if you win game. If you loss with good k/d/a and gpm maybe you loss 0 mmr or smth but you won`t get some mmr i think.And yesterday when i played 16-4 Bs..and good gpm and xpm all i again went into very high and page 8 with bs. 3 games before that i was in high pool somehow..but now i m in very high again. So i think carryes and ganker heroes works on xpm/gpm the most and than k/d/a matters for sure. If you play support than you need to buy wards smoke and that stuff that count for sure i read that somewhere in the past..
And i think you are wrong if you think tMMR will drasticly go down if you lose like 3 games in arrow,not at all. tMMR is based just on average skill of individual players. If 5 pro players like Dendi,XBOCT and more just make team and loss 5 games in arrow i think they will drop from 5500 to 5450..like that..that system is bad, Is always like you get for win like 10-20 pts max and lossing same as that if you dont win.

tMMR only starts at the team average. Each game it updates for the team. Its a separate score and it tells you at the end of each game what the change is from that game. Personal MMR does not change in team matching games. Most team games I have played I gained zero points because there was no other team in the que with a similar rating so my ~4k team would play against a team with maybe 3.6k win easily and get zero points. If we won a game or lost a game against a similar team the change was 10-20 points. But we never had a loss streak so I don't know how fast it changes.

My team where i played 2 mounth ago is 3358 pts. We had 4 wins 2 loss ..and after 3 games 3333 pts so is rly litle difference in getting points. And this low pts team is cos i was best player in team and i make it for fun with my irl freinds..they all was in high and normal bracket just me in very high. If i get players who have skill same as me all of 5 i think after 3 game we will have smth like 4-4.3 k for sure..that`s a minimum.

Well anyway no loss streak so, no data. There are people whose teams did lose like 10 in a row but I don't see those people post much. Maybe someone would be willing to share their win streak gains in Team Matching? We could hope it would be symmetrical.

...but the trouble with that is they are probably some of the best teams like
http://dotabuff.com/teams/492342

Seriousmousegaming has a nice 14 game win streak, but every one is probably a zero points win because no other 5k teams are ever in the que at the same time. In fact last time I checked none of the 5k teams had ever played each other. It may happen occasionally.

Y.. we need example of them.

I want an example because the same basic equations are nearly certain to be used to for both tMMR and personal MMR. You could get a better idea of how long a win streak it really takes to change MMR enough to move between High and Very High games.

Valve should just give TMM rating for tournament games. This way it would be a little more interesting at least. Also I just noticed dotabuff seems to include tour games on the team pages. http://dotabuff.com/teams/111474 for example.

I think if you are at average high and you have like 3-4 games win in arrow with average 4+ k/d/a and low deaths you will go very high..same for very high if you are 2 games in arrow like die 10+ times you will loss alot of mmr. In someway that`s correct how they calcualte this but i think is to much and to fast ..think that need to be slower alot.But valve thinks if you are at very high with good players you need to be good too.Everyone have bad games ..but if you are rly good player you just can`t have like 1-13 score..if that happens that mean you are not good inaf..so you loss much mmr fast.That`s my teory..

That's great! I've happy they are putting some of those up. I wonder if it's a change dotabuff made or just the way Valve has rearranged how tournament games are classified from private lobby to team matching? When I was watching the UK dota tournament some of the games were showing up in team matching on dotabuff and some were not. Now we just need to be able to see more than 1 page of games...or am I the only one with that problem?

I actually lose MMR after winning games a lot. I fall from page 3-4 to sometimes even 20. It just happens. Don't make such a big deal of it.

no you don't
there's a range of games you can be put in to make for a fair game and pages just show the average MMR

I have no idea what the condition is @Relentless but Starladder, Netolic, EMS and more seem to be included at least.

I think is not posible to loss mmr if you win a game.. maybe if you play bad you will get like 1 point or smth but you cant go negative points with win. :D

You can certainly get negative points with win. I know of a friend of mine that shared his account with a noob friend of mine. Let's call the first one A, and the noob one B. A used to get < 3 live games pages frequently, it wasn't weird for him to reach the first game in the first page daily. B was a high bracket player. One day A decided to share his account with B. B got into the first game of the first page using A's account. B won that game. A started looking for a match with his account and he got placed in the 15th page.

So... points can be lost for a win if you perform horribly.

Dotacash had an error in their TSR calculation that caused you to lose points for winning very easy games. It is possible a similar error in Valves code could cause you to lose MMR for having a low KDA in a win...but one game page # change is not conclusive. You need to see a team match that is won and points are lost. You can't just go by live page #. That jumps around for totally unrelated reasons.

I'm not sure if you're losing points or you are matched with lower mmr players to balance the game. If one game you are the highest mmr player in your team, next one you might be the lowest. And there is also stacking, which might pull in your team noobs just because in the opposite team there is a noob in party with someone that actually knows the game.

Today i won game with 5-13-10 DK was a hard game with my bad start..game was very high and somehow we won. But next game was high..i won again but played better so again i was very high and now last 4 games or smth i m very high. Yes Milk i can say if you play terible and win cos of your team mates carry you,you can loss alot of mmr really fast..

tmmr and mmr behave differently because kda is not a factor in tmm games
sorry for busting your balls relentless

It seems very likely you are correct...but how big a factor can KDA really be in MMR? It shouldn't be there are all.

Anyway, the basic mechanics are still the same. If you win or lose a streak of games it should accelerate the change in rating...unless...unless tMMR really is an ELO system instead of a TSR system. The MMR system has to be a TSR type calculation or people would never change their "apparent" rating in so few games as we have seen in many examples.

Even before they implemented the anti-smurf changes I could go from Normal to Very High in a 5 or 6 games win streak.

I think win/loss streak doesn`t matter that much at all..I also played pudge yesterday at `high` and had 2 leavers and i played rly well bu not so good k/d/a was like 9-7-8 and lost..but next game i played very high. I think all depends on k/d/a gpm ,xpm and if you have all of that and have clue what are you doin in a game you will get very very high quickly..doesn`t matter you lossing or winning. Ofc not good to have 5-6 loss streak..

If you have 5-6 loss streak in 99% cases one of that 5-6 games you failed for sure..or just not played very well. You made mistakes.. I know is hard really hard to play perfect dota when you play vs better players but that`s it..mistakes are everywhere and often..if you can see your mistakes as a player what you are doin wrong..you will improve quick and alot. Focus on your personal playing and do your best,don`t flame team..don`t troll and don`t do unmannered kidy stuff.Play like that and that`s minimum 55% win at very high. A player who play perfect dota just cant be less than 55% that`s what i think..

also thing that mmr maybe also considers is spell accuracy.

before, on old hero performance bars i had lower than expected rank despite wining for some heroes that i casted stuns on ground like crazy on begning of game (lina lion) dunno..

aight, I'm gonna tell you how the MMR works (pretty sure I'm right in most of the shit)
the biggest part of it is obviously the outcome of the game

you will almost always gain MMR when you win and lose MMR when you lose
most of the games should be designed to have a 50/50 chance for each team to win, there are however heavily stacked games that aren't perfectly balanced according to the system (absolute top MMR games in a region)
in those games the winner will gain less MMR and the loser is going to lose less as well/might even gain some if his kda is very good in relative terms ( if you lose with a score like 20-50 and have like 10-2 in the end)

then there's your kda each game takes two things into consideration
what is the overall score (kills: radiant vs dire) and how is your kda compared to the average of that hero (maybe taking the hero stats from all matches/ probably segregated into skill brackets)
so a good kda doesn't boost your MMR that much when your team is stomping really hard while a bad kda might actually mean that you gain little to nothing in that case
this is actually how people can stomp many games without gaining a crazy amount of MMR and keep stomping at low levels without having to include too many new accounts

if you play a support who usually has a mediocre kda as a carry and have a really good kda all the time you might get a whole lot more out of a game MMR wise but if you end up losing more games due to playing a hero sub optimally you might end up losing more overall
X
kda determines your MMR a lot more when you only have a few games, too

another thing that might be a factor is win rates of heroes for each team but well that's pure speculation on my part
taking into consideration the win rates of the 5 radiant and dire heroes (i used to play in a league in dota which did this)
so if you pick heroes with really high win rate (probably segregated in MMR brackets) on a team you might end up getting a lot less MMR
what you have to keep in mind is that gaining less MMR for wins is actually helping you to get a higher win rate
that's the problem when you want to look at MMR as a skill indicator and as a means to get fair games
when you 5 man stack and pick strong heroes you actually keep yourself from getting harder/fairer games because obviously the system realizes that the game wasn't won due to you as an individual doing well

so if you want a high win rate better start feeding when you know your gonna win the game!

^Its precisely these kind of mind games that tend to distort normal gameplay whenever the rating is not purely based on strength of schedule. This is why only win/loss and who played should matter for matchmaking rankings. But I have to agree that somehow some in game factors are being used...it seems impossible to be certain which ones and how important they are. All the other stats are nice for comparing things like one hero performance to another hero or "who is best on this hero" and "what is the best way to play this hero" sort of questions...but they should not impact the matchmaking rating.

well that's not a problem if people played for MMR which is kind of pointless at this point because all it does is making your games harder

i really like when people complain about being trapped in lower brackets not realizing that everything would be so much fucking harder if their MMR was higher
MMR isn't about carrying you own weight it's about impacting the game accordingly
you can be the highest or the lowest rated player every game and if you can't impact normal bracket games your gonna be a fucking hindrance every way on the road anywhere else

How would the game be easier in lower matchmaking if you play support and the carry who should win your game is retarded? Can you carry your team with jakiro after min 40, when everyone has bkb? Ah, you hope the retarded in the other team is also the main carry, right?

If the kda shit is real I guess there is no point to bother to play support without stack of 4-5. I mean the support stuff should stop at wards/courier and maybe mek. If the enemy has nyx, the carry should buy his own sentries if he wants to farm. Same about tps. And dusts / gem.