General DiscussionHow to counter turtling lategame?

And don't answer "finish early".

Assume that the game is already going for 50+ minutes.

Is there no way to win vs such a lategame?

The longest game in TI was the same. Invoker+Drow+Weaver(Aghanim)+Oracle+st else
team Empire couldnt push HG even with Mega creeps and lost.

Sorry but don't let it get that long, some lineups are cancer like that (Add a freaking tinker or techies to the list and you have cancer of the ancients), and starve them until they grow impatient and you get few pickoffs(this may only work in my bracket but i have seen it happen in TI too). As AM I find pushing HG extremely difficult so I just blink to the other towers as soon as creeps reach enemy base, get few hits, then blink away. after doing it a few times they stand scattered among towers then team finds the right breakthrough (hopefully).

Maybe a in yourface draft. Lc blademails scepter jumps in the sniper and he should be dead. Axe works too but you will need to fight in the cooldown window of tide ult abd refresher so your teanmates can use the time they are spending helping the sniper on bursting down troll. If you get the right jump and the right follow up is possible.

And getting the pick off on bh should be easy if he keeps scouting and tracking outside the base.

Sniper has something like Rapier-Mjolnir-Daedalus-MKB-Satanic-Butterfly and BoTs in his backpack.

If not killed (he can't be, unless his team fucks up REAL hard), he just melts everyone with Troll ulti.

Like, he literally shreds the whole team in 3-4 seconds.

Or a naga strat with disruptor and axe/lc should do the trick.

In this case the win condition is killing the sniper right?

Thinking about it, this just may very well be an example of a very very strong lategame draft.

Well if you have pick you have counter. Sniper can be countered with blade mails, heavensharlberd, blink heroes, storm,. Also when thei are 5 manning highground you dont really need to push, if you cant, just fsrm, since you can and they cant

usually the way i lose/win games where 1 team is unkillable is either enemies ratting and suiciding into objectives
or sometimes the assaulting team wipes themselves and when turtles approach their hg 1-3 heroes bb and tp to a pushed lane to baserace

But i also understand you, we lost in kills count by 20 this game, but still won the game
https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3383505829
Ez

On the other hand earh spirit could just go agham, turn me into stone amd send into middle

Kill them.

Sniper has Satanic, so BM is irrelevant.

Enemies don't let anyone get close to Halberd/Abyssal/Hex the Sniper, he stays afar.

They have 2 fucking frontliners, who tank it up and Troll near the Sniper all the time.

They don't care about farm, because they have all the items they need and I just can't find an item, which would help to counter them.

You can't suicide into their ancient, because Sniper alone kills 5 heroes in 4 seconds, not even counting the Troll DPS in.

Exactly like that Empire game against Drow+Weaver, but different heroes. The idea is the same.

No matter what you buy, you can't finish the game.

Well even in that case, you suicide for objectives, wait for buyback, repeat or go like wraith king agham and push like that, there are really many ways

You can try some retarded shit like ghost into duel withlc so your teanmates have space to burst down his team. Like chainstunning tidehunter before he ults and/or busrting down troll before bkb.

sniper cant actually 1vs5 wen there is no distraction for him to do the damage.

but if you let that match go to that point you deserve to lose anyways so why even try at this point

Are you talking about this game?

https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3383674678

The problem isn't their high ground defense, it's their lineup is better than yours late so yes you needed to finish sooner.

But that said, how the fuck did you guys have issues? Windranger has a +150 range talent, add a pike and she has 890 range, well over that of a tower. Sniper can still hit her sure but he doesn't have mkb- just winrun, hit the tower a few and back off, don't get hooked.

Pugna with cast range talent can hit buildings with blast at 950 range and do 262 dmg to them with level 25 talent. Again just run it, decryp yourself so you can't pick picked off by sniper, cast and run away. Only takes 7 blasts to drop a t3 tower, cd is 4 seconds with talent.

Issue is your retarded wr didn't take range talent, your pugna didn't take range talent- he took mana ward vs a team with no int heroes! Ok so tide is going to kill half his hp when he refresher ults your whole team, but who cares cus you'll be dead at that point. And your pugna was way underleveled, should've got all the tomes or gone to farm jungle up.

You guys picked a super push heavy team and then failed to push so don't whine that it didn't work. Pick different heroes next time or play better.

I had a game where I was gyro and behind but we had a techies and tinker so we defended hg eternally, had 1 rax left, until I got super farmed and we won.

Just really depends if they make a mistake. That's all I can say xD

Not sure once they have the items but in lots of games people fail to see that they cant go high ground early. They keep trying to but wipe a few times.
You caould try taking outer towers and force them to stay in base while your whole team out farms them. Then when your like 30k ahead try high ground.
Some teams line ups are just so good at defending then other's.

@Dire Wolf
That particular game doesn't matter. I know why we lost it, as I've analysed my replay.
The issue remains: what do you do against such a draft lategame? Like, not this particular game, but in general.

The best strategy assuming they aren't already super farmed is to starve them out. Your team farms the entire map while they're trapped in base not farming and if they try to leave you kill them. Eventually your net worth difference will be so big that their great high ground defence will not matter. Also get aegis and cheese before pushing just in case.

have a better lategame xd

spectre

Sniper is countered by heroes that can close the space between himself and Sniper pew-pewing away from 900 range. Heroes like PA, Spec are good. SB and Storm are also good.

"Sniper has something like Rapier-Mjolnir-Daedalus-MKB-Satanic-Butterfly and BoTs in his backpack."

You let this guy farm way too much.

You counter the healing and supporting by picking AA.

You counter the pipe by getting veil.

You counter the tower hits with Crimson Guard.

You counter the tide ult with Pipe and BKB.

If you can't 5v5 or push, then just farm. Spec with rad heart with outcarry a sniper/dusa 24/7.

Do some cheese.
Get Underlord and heroes who can rax really fucking fast, have someone in your team convert a creep (be it Helm of Dominator or whatever) and hide it in the trees next to their base. Farm enough so that everyone in your team has buyback and items that will make you push even faster. Go force a teamfight that you will most likely lose, everyone is dead but with buybacks, since the other team is also most likely jaded with this game, they'll want to finish fast, so they'll travel tp to the creeps closer to your base and attempt to push. That's when everyone in your team will buyback and have Underlord ulti to the creep next to their base. Throne them. GG

EZ -25mmr for you, because that's what will most likely happen anyway.

^ in 1,500 games you've literally never played underlord lol

Well you can't beat them without better late game lineups if you let them get that farmed. A normal pushing team has whole map controlled by like ~20-25 mins and sniper has like pike and mom or pike and s&y and that's it. Then he's starved in his based competeing with other carries for waves as you go farm entire jungles. You should be 6 slotted at ~40 mins while he is 3 slotted, then do rosh and go end.

Or mass blade mail + bkb and only step into attakc range when those are active.

https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3376824827

look at this match, not that exact lineup u mentioned but still same issue bcz of that sniper high ground. and an unkillable tank + 2 high mobility(qop and mk) and ofc 2 nukers (qop and necro)
as u see we had a super lane, but after that thay camped in base and waited for teamwipe and did a single push to win in less than a minute.
we had great advantage before this camping and this siege lasted for like 30 mins.

so according to my experience in this particular game, patience is the only key. u should wait until they make a mistake and exit base or smt ... which we lost cuz i grew impatient(becuz it was past midnight and i was sleepy) and dived to do somrthing but their huge nuke fucked me and idk why i was 200 gold short for bb and this was it! however my jugg and timber werent so reliable sources too!

so if u have time, just w8 and farm, if not just let them win :D
and you must not let sniper farm and reach that position in the first place!

Spectre is the answer I think
Manta abyssal refresher bloodthorn heart butterfly
Haunt onto sniper abyssal manta bloodthorn refresher haunt abyssal bloodthorn
With io relocate and/or a mid like storm u can do some hexes with refresher on the lotus carriers
U have aegis and cheese on top and someone to hit towers, maybe an offlane like centaur or beastmaster to enable this.
I think io beast master Spectre storm and a support that brings a lot of team fight or pushing power like warlock or aa or kunkka or shaman

^monkey King bar?
??

https://www.dotabuff.com/matches/3375910734
have the same problem. your only way is to farm for buyback and moonshard or pushing item. dont forget to buy crimson and any defensive/pushing item. u Must focus tower not enemies. if your enemy can kill all your team by 5sec. u must destroy his tower by 3 sec !
and if enemy pushing go bb and win the game.
long game is really need good coordination for the team. you must realise that youu fucked up so you need teamwork

the trick is : farm item tower kill,bkb,crimson,ethereal good tho if enemy doesnt have bkb
yolo attack the tower if u die ? bb after that? wait 5 min for bb and push again

Ok so here is what I think
Spectre with abyssal refresher bloodthorn Manta heart butterfly (maybe skadi instead of heart idk if spec has enough Mana without it and I'm not home to test it myself)
Beastmaster with refresher hex bloodthorn pipe ac maybe bkb
Io with heart greaves hex refresher pipe
Storm with bloodstone hex bloodthorn shiva's aghs refresher
Warlock with aghs refresher hex and some utility maybe force glimmer etc
Maybe instead of warlock u can do kunkka with vlads glimmer blink crimson
I'm pretty sure Io relocating bm with haunt and storm and a bajillion hexes and refreshers can lock down both sniper and the saving heroes, not to mention storm aghs and either kunkka boat or golems.

truestrike doesn't work on tower evasion

could 5 man bkb and nuke the sniper if you want so they can't peel as easily. What items does your team and what comp have you got?
Possibly even just cc the tide and kill anything else.

Starvation
Patience
Force/bait them out
Itemization
And obviously, deathball

Well, end early is the best answer.

"How do you beat a 6 slotted Dusa, Spectre, Troll, Sniper, Antimage team?" Can we discuss this topic next?

How is their hg defence even good? Their wave clear is rly not good. You let the sniper/troll get fat, you lose. Thats doto.

it's a war of attrition. get 8 slotted, get hex and refreshers, get HOTD creeps to hide in their base,

The only way i can think of is make them feel like is dragging them out of base, then having enough items to be able to kill them. It's hard af.

U said dont say end early but instead of saying end early i can say dont let the enemy have enough time to have enough items. If they start defending hg @min 25 then they will either be forced to leech xp as 5 and farm as 5 or get out of the base and die

Definitely Naga + LC. Song immobilizes the whole team, so lc could just walk up to sniper and blademail-duel him without giving him a chance to activate satanic. Probably another hero with a big area disable too, so the team won't be able to rescue snipe. This gives you an easy pick off on sniper, but I guess it's still up to your team how u gonna kill the rest.

In general, if you've allowed the game to go late against those lineups, and given them that amount of farm, you're already at disadvantage, no matter how much of a tower lead, kill lead you have. No matter how much you tell us "don't say end early", that's literally the advice to give.
Some advice from the 3K trench that I can give, let the enemy waves push out also, just a tiny bit. Don't let them camp high ground. Theoretical scenario, you disappear with 3 heroes when they have no outer towers left but t3s still up. Bait them into rosh, the only logical objective right? Then split push, ambush, do w/e from there. Know your timings, know their timings. Ults on cd, if a big item is abt to be picked up, level of skills and talents that might come into play,etc. play off of those.

I actually never thought of rosh bait before

Kill rosh 10 times, bottle 150 runes, buy 15 sheepsticks. In a stupid lategame scenario just oneshot sniper with 5 dagons. There is billion ways if you are a team and can communicate.

@tim you pick some things up in the 3k trenches 🙃
I've won several games off of RS baits before. Pull them top to contest rs, then go split push bot, force them to either take aegis or lose rax. Or, fake rs, they step outside their boundaries to contest, cave in on them.
Honestly, just chip down a single tier 3 until it's down. It opens up the game. Take out both shrines to eliminate enemy map control, and just pull them apart from there. OP said something abt "can't split push there is Pudge who will pick them off"... good, space created bot while top rax evaporates. Die with purpose.

The easiest way is 5 hexes and 5 refreshers and ways to jump hg
U just lock the whole team down because u farm the whole map then kill them and end

Honestly should ask master splinter .

@Stentorian

I have another account where I play exclusively (or close enough) 5 men party games. There I've played him a few times...anyway, what I said was something I saw in Dota WTF and not meant to be taken seriously.

Enigma could do the trick.
Key items Blink + Aganim + BKB should be enough to fuck up things for Sniper and everyone pretty bad. Those double Midnight pulses will fry tanks if they get cought. Double MP + BH are something like -2/3 of whole hp.

1st priority get Sniper with Enigma
2nd team needs to stop Pudge from hooking Enigma. Fry Pudge
3rd kill Sniper...

Aside from that, should be quite doable to kill them and win the game.

This is why we have initiators.

Can yall please stop giving hero specific suggestions