General DiscussionHas anyone recently played with a player who had his MMR boosted?

I'm not 5k but I've been 4.9k. My friend has a 2.2k mmr account, I'll smurf on it soon and let you know.

What does a 5k (or near 5k player) do? Go on obvious kill potential, pay attention, actually play dota. What you do wrong is mostly everything.

Below around 3.6k or so, the main problem is the inability to farm efficiently. Getting 50 - 60 cs in 10 minutes below that range is almost unheard of.

Smokes? Doesn't happen, all smokes in stock all game--item doesn't even exist in your mmr.

Pre 10 minute mid smoke ganks by supports? Doesn't happen, supports prefer to stay in lane, sap xp, out of position.

Dewards? Doesn't happen. Where do wards go? Obvious spots.

Pulling? Doesn't happen, doesn't happen often enough, or is done excessively to the detriment of the safelane carry. Side pull doesn't exist to 99.99% of players in this MMR.

There's way too many things to list, honestly. 2k players just aren't paying enough attention. Very sloppy mechanics, very slow reaction times.. afraid to go on easy kill potential (indicating a big lack of knowledge).

2k players are too comfortable. They are passive. The majority of 2k players just don't take the game seriously enough, and a lot are very toxic, yet delusional and think they are good players. You can say this for the majority of players in the game, but these low mmr's specifically seem to have a very very delusional and incorrect understanding of the game overall. For example, we have 50 kills and enemy team has 10, I can ask for my team to come push and they will all jungle, I have aegis and I'm a fat 20 - 0 slark, team will still jungle. It's like 2ks are insane and not in reality, I don't know how to really explain it. But if you're tryhard it shouldn't take long to leave this MMR.

I have to disagree with aaron a bit, but his concerns are legitimate. I don't think he has played many actual 2k MMR games.

Or maybe he is simply exaggerating. I have played several hundred games boosting accounts as low as 1.2k MMR.

There are smokes used, but they are used rarely and badly. Most likely I will see a 2k MMR player hold a smoke for 10 minutes and not use it, or use it when in vision range so its instantly dispelled. Pre-10 min smokes ganks by supports are very rare at 2k MMR, but you usually don't need smoke because the warding is bad (almost always on the exact same rune spots early). So you can walk in fog most of the time anyway on accident. Besides this the real reason smoke ganks are not done early at 2k MMR is players are incabable of checking the mini map anyway.

A good player checks the mini-map almost constantly, every few seconds. A 2k mmr player might check once per minute, and maybe not even that much. So its easy to walk right past the obs ward and gank anyway... or right past the creep wave. It is hard for anyone to appreciate this because you cannot see a players eyes glancing to the mini-map on a replay or even on a livestream of a pro player. So most average dota players have no idea they are checking so much less often.

Pulling does happen at 2k MMR very often, but not every team every game. And it is not done well. The more advanced side pulls, double pulls, stacked pulls, and triple pulls are unlikely to be performed correctly, but I see them attempted watching replays of low MMR games.

The main thing is what he says here. "2k players are too comfortable. They are passive."

Average dota players do not play to win. If you want to win consistently and gain lots of MMR you have to actively take control of the game. But realize, even if you do you probably can't become a VHS player. Most people cannot do this. Everyone cannot be in the top few % by definition. It is limited by mechanical skill and if you don't have it you will get stuck and unable to advance at some point. That point may be a much lower MMR than you would wish.

There u go again with your reckless definition of mechanical skill and what it means.

Hell even 3ks can come into 2k and lower to shit on everyone. It's not hacks or anything, players with a higher MMR then you are generally better then you. (aside from account buyer and most smurf)

This really should not even be controversial. Higher mmr players are more mechanically skilled than lower ones and it is ultimately what decides how high you can go, although at the very top (7k+) the differences are so small mmr is mostly about who wants it more.

There is a reason the NBA is full of people vastly taller than average height and vastly quicker than average men. Those are the skills required to be the best in the world at basketball. When they were in college the NBA players were stars, not because they worked harder or "understood" the game better than other college players. Did they have to work hard? Sure. But most players who make an NCAA division 1 college team could NEVER go pro. EQUAL EFFORT DOES NOT PRODUCE EQUAL RESULTS.

Most highschool basketball players could NEVER play starting for a big college team. No matter how much they worked for it they lack the talent. When you are little kids everyone gets to play, but most boys could NEVER make the starting basketball team in highschool no matter how badly they wanted it.

Its the same way with everything else including dota. People are unique. We do not have the same abilities. Life is not fair. Make the most of what you have, but do not be delusional. It will only get you upset. I think a lot of the rage in dota is actually from people falsely believing they should be at much higher MMR. They think they are special and better than their teamates. You are not better than those people on your team. They got to the same score you did the same way. The players with higher scores: They ARE better at dota than you. And its mostly due to talent, something you cannot control or achieve.

Almost all of the tens of millions of dota 2 players face the same problems no matter their MMR. Almost all but a tiny handful will get close to 50% win long term. Some games you can't win. Some games you can't lose. You can only do your part.

i just played 2 games with a smurfer, and checked the replays, he did nothing fking special, he just played dota, but they only go mid, cuz its the easiest and fast way to snow ball, i havent see any smurfer playing the traditional dual lanes, cuz its just a fkin mess.

also they play normal and check items from the enemy, if they see that there is no regen on the other side, they ll trade hits with u a lot, so u have to go back, and them the snowball starts.

and they think about the game, the jug on my last game went hurricane pike, so he could dodge the clockwerk, on replay he looked like the most conscious one from the team, invoker was a bad, sniper was bad, void was soso, didnt see anything rly bad bout him.

but yea, mid is full of smurferinos, i didnt see any pro smurfer make it through supporting, its harder and its so shit to be supp of brainless core guys lul

I've watched streamers boosting from 0mmr to 4k mmr and the guy lost few games at 1k mmr. Some games you just can't win dude.

if you're smurfing it's still easy to climb with a support but makes for harder/impossible games. mid might give you 90-95% chance to win, but offlane/support will be like 80%+ which means there's still no excuses.

i ld like too see smurfers streaming the boost, playing dazzle, oracle, cm, wd, but as supp, not as a mid ogre magi rad manta octa build lul

the only difference in a 5-6k player playing in a 5-6k game vs. playing in a 2-4k game is literally just: play single player.

that's it.

that's the only difference.

pretend your team is bots.

i don't even mean mute people and play alone, i mean literally assume your team are bots and play like that. i smurf once in awhile or play with friends and the biggest thing i've learned is you cannot assume your team will do anything at all.

for example:

one time im playing antimage and I have 75 hp.
enemy viper has ~200 hp.

the plan is to blink on him, and then I get healed by omniknight and viper dies.

instead I blinked and omniknight is afk and I died. (omni was 3k)

so yea, just assume you're alone, don't expect your team to do anything different.

other than that, gameplay is pretty much the same.

also: focus objectives. getting kills won't do anything except make the networth difference from your team to theirs much bigger, so when your team feeds the game gets harder.

Just pick an offlane that can push alone :v mid has alot of retards fighting over it.

I feel the same. Much better watching a higher rated player stomp on your bracket. Allows u to see what is exploitable in your peers

i 4k smurf watch
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2609177013
support zues

i play 2.7k game zues offlane and buy all support items i can win no items 2 v 1

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2606802193
i play core zues easy win

i play offlane win despite feeder bb raging me not to save him
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2607157898
this game so funny watch nub legion fail deward has no jungle so long

you see other nub in game do well because i win they stay here low mmr i win more go up

they not know i make them win no sense of game

i lose some games cause lag its bad but i play this name if maybe lag

It is possible to smurf without being mid. The results of the wins are usually less obvious, but you'll see they have massive win streaks as well

Get axe offlane, go ham. Silencer/necro mid did fine for me at 800 mmr (not this acc obv.) Basically, the more mmr you go down, the less item progression people have. Sure there's being out of position etc, but people just don't care about gpm sub 4k.

Ok, I haven't done a replay analysis for a while and a smurf replay might be interesting. This Zues spammer claims he is 4k. He has 218 games of Zues on ranked with 64.22% winrate so assuming that's all solo he would have started at 1,150 MMR and rose to 2.7k.
This past week he won 62% of 34 games so i guess he is still holding that average. He won 31 of the first 34 games so 91% winrate from 1.15k to 1.85k. It looks like he has slowed down a lot from that 90%+ winrate.

So this game...is at 2.7k MMR
http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2607157898
That may still seem extremely low to a lot of people who play in VHS all the time but remember the average player is only 2.25k and half of them go down from starting there. 2.7k is about 25th percentile from the top. These are players who easily beat the average 2k MMR pubs but can't quite make it up to ever so elite HS games at 3.2k.

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Let's see who the players are. There are four with stats ON.

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/125184761
Wings appears to be a newer smurf 154 ranked games 59% winrate. He started at 2k mmr and rose to 2.7k. But now seems to be struggling 35 ranked games this month with only 34.29% winrate. This is near max MMR for his current skills. He plays Legion which helped him rise but has struggled near this MMR. He won the first 5 games, then lost 3 at higher MMR.

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/83463378
Skinny Pete is a main account 1600 games and 51.57% winrate. He has been near this MMR for a long time, has touched HS but can't hold it. 31 games of HS and 45% winrate. Only one ranked HS game, which he lost immediately dropping back to NS. He is also close to max MMR, but can play a little better than 2.7k. He plays Kunka, one of his better heroes 125 games and 54.5% winrate.

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/44144855
Gotta go Fast is another main account with 2100+ games and 51.99% winrate. He has never played a game in HS so he is near max MMR at 2.7k. He plays Lion which is good hero for him 61% winrate on 63 games.

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Pre-game:

The first thing I notice is item purchase speed. The Zues starts buying his items within 2 seconds of loading. He knows exactly what he is going to do. No one else buys an item until 7 seconds after loading. They take much longer to decide and click on their purchases.

Zeus gets a tp scroll and wards to block camps. He is already in the offlane before the enemy heroes have left their fountain. He ward blocks the three closest camps to bottom lane so legion can't jungle efficiently and puts the obs where he can see ganks coming from some angles. Zues hides behind fog to place his wards in case someone did come and waits past the minute mark so they will last just barely long enough to block an extra spawn time. He is done warding and leaves before anyone sees him doing it.

Lion places an Obs top in the typical rune spot. It does not protect mid from ganks or help with uphill vision mid.

Clinkz scouts uphill so he gets an advantage and takes the top rune. Jugg is outplayed for the rune not standing close enough when it spawns.

Bottom rune BristleBack fails to realize he is alone 1 v 2 and tanks 290 dmg before the rune even spawns. But instead of leaving he stays and outclicks the PA for it, then feeds FB immediately. He spams pings at Zues who had no chance at all of getting there and no slow or stun to save him anyway. He also clicks to report Zues immediately.

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Laning Phase:

Legion is iron talon jungling. But since the camps he wanted were all blocked and he failed to realize this quickly he does not even touch a creep until 1:38. He does not take care of his positioning and blocks the 2 min respawn. He does not think about stacking the camp. So by 2:30 he has cleared two camps, and there are no jungle creeps anywhere. He has nothing to farm until 3 min. He doesn't realize they are ward blocked and rechecks the blocked camps. He gets back to jungling at 3:18. Picking up sentry wards setting his farm back another 200 gold. He places the counter wards so late that the sentries blocking have already expired. Also this moved the still walking courier out to him and back for essentially nothing.

At 4:18 Legion returns to jungling. He has 180 gpm - a terrible start, but iron talon jungle is so easy and effective he can still catch up.
At 5 min legion tries to gank Zues but Zues dodges it and body blocks another jungle camp while juking.
Legion gets blink at 11:06 from the still walking courier.

Lion did not buy a courier. After the rune spawn he walks back to base to get one then tp out to dual top with Clinkz against Juggernaut.
He correctly executes a stack and pull top. While he does he checks on mid and bot. Lion stacks again and clears the first three easy camps stacks denying a lot of XP to the offlane Juggernaut while collecting his own. But Jugg does side pulls that mostly cancel this out.

At 4:21 Lion tries to stop jugg from farming the side camp pull, but he spins before he can be disabled and escapes. Lion could have made this lane very hard for jugg if he got mana drain. But he leveled spike and hex instead, not getting a point in mana drain until level 4 at 6 minutes. Lion does not actually cast mana drain until 10:30 when he casts it on a creep. He has used dramatically fewer spells than he could have in the early game. This made the offlane fairly easy for Juggernaut.

Lion upgrades the courier at 7:38. He finished tranquils first. Lion cast only 4 spells in the first 8 minutes of the game. He did 3 harrass attacks on jugg during 8 minutes of laning. At 7:45 Skywrath ganks and kills him.

Clinkz is safelane carry top. He is basically solo against Jugg since Lion is always stacking and pulling. By 8 min he is 37/3 so he got about 60% of the early lasthits. He also harassed Jugg enough to make him use all four tangoes and cast healing ward twice. But he could not get a kill.

Jugg offlaned very well for this mmr. He used two side pulls to regain lane control countering lion he also stacked the secret camp at 5 min while he was healing. He got his own obs ward to watch his flank at 6:32. And he did not panic spin whenever lion cast spike on him, saving if for better use. By 8 min he was 17/4, actually more denies than the Clinkz. I would say Jugg definitely won his lane.

Mid was Kunka vs Invoker (quas-wex). Kunka hit a lot of tidebringer harrassment, and even 5 torrents. But quas healed invoker so much he didn't even use all his tangoes. At 6:44 Invoker solo killed Kunka with a tornado-emp-cold snap combo. At 7:33 Kunka threw his combo and missed the X timing so it did nothing. 9:20 Kunka hits the combo and Zues and Clinkz finish off Invoker. At 9:30 he hits another torrent on Skywrath and gets him low enough for Zues to kill him. But Kunka fails to de-aggro the tower, takes 2 extra hits more than he had too and dies.

So by 10 min Invoker has 31/11 with 3058 networth and Kunka has 29/0 with 2688 networth. Advantage Invoker. He won the lane more clearly before he got ganked.

Bristleback fed FB at 11 seconds into the game. Then he went bot and spammed quils until he was oom but missed all but one lasthit. Muted and Reported Zues, then went mid and stole two runes from Kunka. Then he went top taking a very long detour around the jungle without stacking camps to fail to be close enough to help at all ganking juggernaut. Bristleback walked deep under the tower top against no one while jugg was healing and nearly died to tower hits by himself. He took 5 extra tower hits failing to deaggro. Then he pulled the easy camp at 6:12, without stacking it giving Jugg back the lane control. He did it again at 7:12. This mistake is what put Lion in position for Skywrath to kill him. BB did not notice the gank or stop autoattacking creeps. By 8 min he is 5/3 cs and the lowest xp and networth in the game except for Lion. I guess we could call this "roaming" but really he just walked around failing every move he made leeching xp from his team while wrecking lane control and nearly zero dmg to the enemy. This guy appears to belong to a much lower MMR than this game, or at least has no idea how to play bristleback.

Pa spams dagger to assist on the kill of BB for FB at the rune, then is safelane carry bot with Skywrath against Zues. PA walks the courier all the way to bot at 1:45 to deliver a wraithband. If invoker needed regen he would be totaly screwed mid, but with quas this error does not cost him too badly. He spams dagger on Zues in lane instead of focusing on lasthitting. PA takes so much harrass from Zues he uses up his four tangos and another two shared from skywrath. He does not get a magic stick. At 5:24 he walks back to base and gets a RoH to tank harassment. He is 11/3 at 6 minutes only getting 46 % of the early lasthits.

But at 6:17 Skywrath sneaks around Zues through the secret shop fog and they kill him. That is Zues only death for the whole game. Zues goes to roam and gank at this point PA catches up to 36/4 by 10 minutes. PA is only 200 networth behind clinkz at this point, but she had to build defensively so she is not much of a threat to fight or to accelerate her farm.

Skywrath gets FB on BB. He does get a magic stick so he survives the chain lighting harass much better than PA. At 2:36 he already has 10 stacks on his magic stick and uses it. But he is intimidated and takes a defensive position in the lane. He does almost no harass to Zues - one cast of arcane bolt and one attack in the first 6 minutes. Then he sneaks into the shop in fog and gets close enough to Zues for Sky and PA to kill him from full health. PA gets a crit 1 of 3 attacks and Zues used magic stick too early with only 2 charges. They cast 6 more spells to kill him so he may have been able to turn and kill PA first if he held the stick longer.

Zeus wrecks Legions jungle with wards and costs PA and Skywrath 8 tangoes of regen and two trips back to the fountain he harasses them so much with chain lightings. By 6 minutes he has 17/0 the same level of farm as Juggernaut the opposing offlane got by 8 minutes. He evades Legions ganking him at 5 min by juking into fog. Zues ward sees Legion rotating and he backs up within 0.5 seconds of Legion entering ward vision, stops to block the spawn before walking back out of range so Legion can't dispell Zues clarity. At 5:26 Zues steps back into fog avoiding PA's attempt to cancel a clarity with dagger. You can see from PA's perspective she attempts to click on him several times but is too slow to position her mouse as he walks in and out of fog.

So the early game is clearly won by the Radient. They are up 4-0 on kills by 8 min. They are ahead 2500 gold, and 2500 xp. They won top and mid lanes, but Zues won bot lane despite dieing one time.

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Mid-game

At 9:20 things really get going. Zues and Clinkz come mid as does Skywrath. Skywrath and Invoker are killed, but kunka dies to failing to de-agrro the tower afterwards.

10:42 Skywrath Mage dives on Kunka and kills him mid. This was a correctly executed smoke gank by Skywrath.

11:14 Skywrath Mage finds clinkz jungling with low hp and mana and finishes him off.

11:51 Kunka finishes off Jugg top with a nice tidebringer splash during his bladefury.

12:55 Jugg dies to Kunka and Lion combo. Kunka missed his timing but finger of death after bladefury ended so they get him anyway. Jugg was mid cast animation for omnislash when lion hexed him.

At 13 min Invoker almost solo kills Zues mid with tornado-emp-cold snap. But Zues times his magic stick correctly and jukes into fog lives on 9 hp. Legion is there also and blinks behind the tower but cannot find Zues who tp out in fog.Invoker really should have got the kill but he did not seem to think he had to attack walk it so he got fogged as well. Skywrath and Legion spend 20 seconds searching for Zues in fog after he tp out.

13:45 Legion Commander does his first, very much delayed, duel killing BB bot with Skywrath and PA. His items at this point are blink dagger and iron talon. BristleBack tried to stop PA from taking the T1 tower which he could have done if he used his tp scroll, but instead he walked all the way there arriving just after the tower died. They killed just as he made it back to the T2 tower.

14:08 Legion attempts to take the haste rune bot, Zues is already waiting on highground and kills him.

14:25 Invoker and Skywrath get killed in a teamfight mid.

15:08 Clinkz has completed Orchid - solo kills Jugg.

15:35 Legion dual kills Kunka under the mid tower with Invoker and Skywrath assisting. Lion arrives slightly late but fingers LC to death on the way out.

16:07 Clinkz kills PA, gets juked but Zues Wrath finds her tping out and he finishes the job.

17:00 trade Skywrath for Lion in teamfight

17:32 Jugg gets picked off 3 v 1 Clink early orchid is kicking his butt

18:30 teamfight mid, Legion wins the duel killing Kunka, but they lose 4. Juggernaut was farming, Bristle was also afk farming... that's pretty much all he does the whole game.

20:10 Legion duels Zues and does not get close to killing him because Zues has low attack speed and high armor with Veil of Dischord. Invoker throws a combo first to set it up but Zues dodges it, then jukes into fog after casting all mana getting LC very low.

21 Radiant lose another teamfight as Invoker and LC attempt to escape from the failed gank of Zues. OWNAGE is declared.

21:30 PA jukes away from Lion and Kunka who fail to chain stuns

21:50 LC duel and kills Lion as they continue to chase PA

22:10 Invoker and LC attempt to kill Zues but again get juked in fog. Zues jukes then tp out from 48 hp.

23 Clinkz picks off LC with Orchid

23:03 Bristleback accidentally dies to creeps as he attempts to farm an ancient camp. I guess he got distracted looking at the gank of LC, took his camera off and forget he was almost dead? I have no idea how a player this bad is in the game.

23:10 Kunka picks off Jugg with a shadow blade DD rune.

At this point Dire is up 10k xp and 7k networth. Zues and Clinkz are snowballing while Kunka has recovered. Bristleback manages to not feed to much by avoiding everything. PA and Jugg were both planning to go Bfury and solo push lanes to farm, but they keep getting picked off doing it.

Everytime there is a pickoff- Zues Wrath shows where the enemy is and gets them low. He never uses it to ks and often does it about one second before the attack making it clear where all the positions are. Everytime legion tries to duel Zues punishes him hard. Zues often takes positions in fog just behind or to the side a possible gank target then pops out and turns the fight. This causes the Radiant to play scared. Their farming efficiency drops and they spend a lot of time clumped and hiding... except for PA pushing up the lane until she is ganked.

PA does escape from Zues ganks twice by forcing him to guess where she is tp out in fog. He should use ult first, then bolt so he can cancel that tp in time. But he guesses with bolt first and guesses wrong.

28 min Dire take rosh while Radiant hide in base

Zues tends to push the opposite lane when his ult is up. This lets him have teamfight or gank power, while keeping the lanes pushed and farming all at once. Since Clinkz and Kunka are dangerous enough already Radiant plays defensively and every time they venture out slightly they die.

32 min Kunka knows how to siege the base safely using X on himself, he walks up and does the shadowblade tidebringer crits then is recalled. Bristleback continues to farm nothing slowly.

33:48 Legion attempts a duel just outside his base and is instantly killed leading to a teamwipe. That becomes Mega creeps quickly and the game. Skywrath begins warding his foutain. Bristleback is still afk farming and contributes nothing to the win.

There is a lot of all chat blaming after the game is over. Clinkz played well, but without excellently timed Wraths half his ganks would have failed. Radiant won the early game decisively, despite LC farming nothing and PA very little. From the replay booth watching all perpesctives it seems quite clear the Zues won a game his team should have lost - especially with that Bristleback who certainly would have fed badly if the map was not totally controlled for him to face only creeps... which still somehow killed him once.

A quick look at dmg totals shows who was effective. Zues leads everyone by a large margin with 21k. Clink 16k. Kunka 14k. The Juggernaut did only 1k dmg. He rarely survived to cast a spell.

Yo Relentless, wud really appreciate it if you can analyze my main account (this one) compared with my smurf; http://www.dotabuff.com/players/270620540

I have a necrophos bundle I can gift u in return if u want it, for spending the time. Can you give me some good, detailed analysis on why I cant seem to go beyond normal skill on my main, yet I've stomped high skill matches on my smurf.... Also I dont play ranked because of bad, unreliable internet, but my hidden mmr on unranked shud hav increased by now on my main....

Relentless same here, can you analyze my acc too, i really appreciate if u can..
i want to know my biggest problem, currently my TI mmr was near 3,8 and normal mmr was 3,2+

http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2379865128
i played tinker 4k on average 2500 and i had 45 kills 400 lasthts 4k tower damage as tinker lmaoo..and 60 k hero damage so yes trash 2k alot ..

"Bottom rune BristleBack fails to realize he is alone 1 v 2 and tanks 290 dmg before the rune even spawns. But instead of leaving he stays and outclicks the PA for it, then feeds FB immediately. He spams pings at Zues who had no chance at all of getting there and no slow or stun to save him anyway. He also clicks to report Zues immediately."

hahaha I love when people spam click random people around them when they die.. like that zeus could chain lightning all of them to death before BB die or some sh..

Well i smurf with good winrate lul

Santana, I do dota analysis for fun when I have time. I do analysis for big $$$ irl everyday.

In this case it looks like you made the right choice to make a smurf. You had a record on your main that suggests you were very under rated at 2k MMR. But you had played so few ranked games and calibrated a long time ago when you were much worse at dota. You have played over 2,000 games since you calibrated almost 2 years ago. 87 ranked games at 60% winrate tells me you would be moving up quickly... but it would still take at least 240 games at 60% winrate to rise to 3.2k where your smurf is. And it only took you 94 games to get there by making the smurf.

But I see that you have stopped playing the smurf much (only 1 game in 6 months?). Did you feel like it was too hard and not as fun to play at HS level? Or did you just not want to bother transferring your friends list over to the new name? I can't know what you are thinking. But you could play the main account up to HS level eventually if you played more ranked games. It would take a long time. 240 game minimum is my estimation, but its more likely to end up being 400 to 600 games to get it to HS in practical reality because the games get harder as MMR goes up so your winrate will drop close to 50% as you get close to HS.

Or you could continue on the smurf. I think HS games will be challenging for you but possible to win close to 50%. You may drop out of HS but will stay close to it and probably eventually get back in.

it's hilarious how people actually think that 8ks have SUCH BETTER mechanics than a 4k.

sure, they're better but not noticeably. no matter how much you practice mechanics, you will never break to the top 0.01%

You're right cookie. Here's a game I played a few weeks ago vs moo: http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2560189133

I'm only 4.0 right now, was 4.7 a month ago, max mmr 4.9k. With the help of a 6k nyx I rekt Moo (8k) in lane, and all game really he struggled vs me. He couldn't cs in lane easily vs me.

I'm not sure what to make of this. But I do know the game wouldn't be so easy without my 6ks having massive impact, winning lanes, etc.

Cookie I can tell the difference between a 4k, 5k, 8k player just by watching them move the mouse for a few minutes in the lane. It's a night and day difference 4k to 8k. In straight time it may seem a small difference but its not.

The very best not only move not only with extreme speed and accuracy, but smoothly, confidently to exactly what they want to do and no extra spam clicks. It's really very different from what a 4k or 5k player does clicking frantically at the limit of their ability to perceive and react to the game.

Aaron he most likely had problems with lag. That is why the big tournaments must be on LAN. When you go to LAN suddenly the best players are a LOT better. You might take 0.15 or 0.2 seconds to make a move (say for a lasthit). MOO probably takes only 0.1 or maybe even 0.05. But if he has just a slight ping disadvantage he become ordinary. If he times a lasthit to 0.05 sec and you can only do it to 0.15.... then if you have equal damage he will always win the contest. When it comes to disables... if you cast 0.05 sec faster you win 100% the other guy has no chance.

Honestly, I can't normally even see this stuff. I have to watch the game at 0.25 speed to see it.

Now in this case I see you had Qblade on juggernaut. Your dmg may have been so much higher that there was no way for him to compete with a timbersaw. Some hero and item matchups really do give a big advantage to one side.

But, anyway, with pings of 0.30 a 0.05 time becomes 0.35 and a 0.15 becomes 0.45. It is a lot harder to distinguish the performance in online games and if one players ping ticks up a bit the difference vanishes.

you're wrong, almost no one on the planet has that reaction speed.

higher mmr players(like me) use a different method, we predict what should happen so it actually seems like we have insane reflexes

i had 1v1s where people said they couldn't win cus i'm better at mechanics, in truth i'm actually half blind- i have triplopia(i see 3 images of everything) and there's no way i could be that fast.

it's not that i'm fast, it's just that i know what the enemy will do.

which to the naked eye of an observer seems like the higher mmr players have better mechanical skill.

i've thought this method to a 1k player, he was able to trash a 5k 1v1.

it's not mechanics, it's prediction.

like in that example above, a 4k was able to trash an 8k player because his nyx had the predictions and set him up. then the 8k couldn't do anything no matter how good he was.

miracle even got outcarried by a 3k, because his team set the 3k up in souch a way that even miracle couldn't contest it.

No, Cooke the fact is there are people who are even faster than that. Even old people.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGl8ocDWggM
0.02 sec to draw a gun-cock-aim-and shoot 50+ year old man, he was that fast young, still was old
This is not just speed but control to hit the bulls-eye at that speed.

There are some players who use prediction. It's true. Chuan, for instance, is a great predictor but not that fast. But there are players who are that fast. TC, Korok, Ferrai_430 are that fast. 0.05 seconds or less to move a mouse to a position within 300 units and click it when someone blinks on them or appears from invis.

Prediction is good, but people can be unpredictable. At some point the speed matters if you want to win against the best in the world consistently.

I'm not saying pure mechanics makes the top players invincible and have super powers. I'm just saying they ARE in fact faster and it does matter.

@Relentless Thank you so much for the analysis man! Give me your steam id and I can gift you that bundle as a way of thanks.

I don't play the smurf because I'm waiting for the day I get good internet. My ping randomly shoots to 500 at many points of the game, so until I get good internet (which might be when I move out of Pakistan some day :p) I really can't take the risk. You're right about the main account; 2k bracket is just so braindead that it was much more convenient stomping games in my smurf and reaching higher skill levels (altho I got stomped back when I reached VHS) Also I try heroes I'm weak at on my main, like morphling, which is why I don't go continuous win streaks on this account at 2k mmr.

it's literally impossible to have a 0.05 reaction time given a new situation. the only way that is correct is if he'd predict that happening.

your example is someone doing something purely mechanical.

pulling out a gun and shooting is really automated repetition. it's like riding a bike.

at first when you're trying to learn it you'll fall off, and if you master it you'll balance yourself on just 1 wheel with no hands

but that's just muscle memory.

it's not the same as being given a new situation, example someone with a blink pops up in 0.05 seconds and tries something.

there's tons of delay, your ping, your monitor etc.

but most importantly the time it takes your brain to process that information.

the difference between this and a bycicle is that your brain when riding a bike already knows how to balance itself and it doesn't have to re-calculate anything.

but when given a new situation you have to figure out a solution.

the only way that those players would have souch fast reaction speeds(0.05 seconds) is that they already KNOW that the enemy will blink onto them.

so what i'm saying is, they're faster but they're not notcably faster, and it doesn't matter as much as you think it does.

edit, think about it: what your theory suggests is that pros are 10x faster than the average person at learning new mechanical/muscle memory things.

so if we were to give a 4k player a bike and dendi a bike, you're saying that dendi would learn to ride in 1 hour, while the normal pleb would learn to ride a bike in 10 hours; that'd be just ridiculously stupid to say. dendi on average will learn to ride a bike at the same speed some 4k pleb will

they're faster, but they're NOT as fast as yu make it seem.

all of them use prediction methods.

It is true that no one can react in 0.05 seconds online. But on LAN the top pros can do it.

I see a difference between watching Chuan who will preselect his ability to counter stun and position his mouse before the enemy blinks in, then click when they do blink. I have seen that and yes there are a lot of good predictors. Chuan sometimes has the mouse sit there with the ability selected over 1 second before the enemy initiation comes.

However, I have also seen TC stop his move-click, move his mouse over to the hero that blinked at him and cast instead of moving in 0.05 seconds. Both exist. And I think the reaction speed does give those that have it a significant advantage. They may not be the ones who will win a TI every time. There are so many other factors. In many cases prediction is better than reaction. But watch replays of a LAN, say TI6 games on 0.25 speed you will see examples. Read the combat log and watch the mouse movements. It's real.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mental_chronometry
Reaction for large leg muscles is much slower than fingers, but even that is measured as fast as 0.1 seconds.

It is very hard for researchers to measure reaction speeds and I think the studies I have read about it had improper methodology. I believe human nerve pathways can be faster than usually claimed based on what I have observed pro dota players do.

@Relentless

I fucking love your analysis even I got nothing to do with that game or players. Very detailed and precise. Please do more !

Thanks

i'm NOT saying that the reaction speed is impossible. i'm saying it's impossible to process new information that fast.

only, i mean only way their brain can process that new situation that fast is that they knew that it should happen.

either trough experience, or by actively predicting. either way they predict it.

look if you already know what's happening, your sub-conscience will just react as fast as it can. the only way that your brain could react the way you say it does, is if it KNOWS what should happen and already set up for that scenario.

example back to riding a bike or that guy shooting a gun.

but if you don't know then you have to actively think about it with your conscienceless. it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a 0.05 reaction time given a completely new situation.

the only LOGICAL solution in the way the human's brain works, is that he has to know it. or he already experienced it once so the path reaction happens. but either way, like i said both are predicting.

No worry kids cookie main is 3.8k mmr😂 why argue with no blue star aye.

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/145989100/matches?hero=arc-warden cookies main 3.2k pty, 3.8k solo. Rofl

You know what's really funny? You're too fucking stupid to see that's a smurf account. He has an 87% winrate in 15 games dude, congrats on letting the world know you're an idiot :D

Are you drunk kiddo? 520 matches on that account. Lmfao

No, but clearly you are.

Does a 3k player go 50 - 4 on bloodseeker? http://www.dotabuff.com/matches/2428938316

Cookie is 5K+ on his main dude. He probably bought this account or borrows it from a friend.

I don't know how people like you can be so fuckin dumb. Do us all a favor and don't spread your seed, please, people as dumb as you are not in reality.

Nonono kiddo. Link that 5k lmfao.

That bs game (1-3k) mmr lmfao. What's the point to get 50-4?

Sad reality ?😂

Link me his 5k account I'll cut my middle finger😂

http://www.dotabuff.com/players/145989100/matches?hero=arc-warden sad reality? Egoistic ass?

95% winrate, isn't it obvious? How dumb are you lul

Haha. Sad reality? Egoism kreygasm?

Hover that account 520 matches still on 3.8k solo/3.2k party. Sadnfacekappa

Tbh I have to admit that everyone knows that cookie is PROBABLY 5k+, but no one saw his main acc. Pls link.

I've seen his main, and it's 5k+ idk why I would lie rofl

he's posted with it on these forums lul

He can't link a 5k account.:-)

Want me to post his account? :-) 3.8k solo,3.2k party(520 matches)